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jcg
07-19-2013, 07:22 AM
Has there even been any knot testing done by forum members? I searched on knot testing but nothing came up, or maybe this isn't the right forum to post on that? I'm building a homemade knot tester as I want to run some experiments and expand on what I've learned from the Knot Wars show on TV. Knot wars has their data for the 2009/2010 seasons and I'll post it below. I don't have their 2011 data, but the homer circle did beat the berkley braid which is the champion below.

I want to run some tests on the top knots to see if they can be improved, by adding more/less wraps, running the line through the hook eye twice (for those that didn't do that), etc. I never fish with mono, so I'll be mostly testing braid/fluoro. If you do the ranking below based just on those 2 lines the top 5 in order are: berkley braid, triple loop, improved reverse clinch (which I submitted to knot wars way back in 2008), burke and san diego jam. Any interest in this or ideas for testing?




Mono
Braid
Fluoro
Average
Rank



Berkley Braid
19.82
17.36
19.69
18.957
1



Fish-N-Fool (updated)
20.54
19.44
15.21
18.397
2



Burke Knot
19.32
18.62
16.49
18.143
3



Triple Loop
18.49
16.07
19.74
18.100
4



Improved Reverse Clinch
17.67
18.96
16.46
17.697
5



San Diego Jam
17.76
17.84
15.25
16.950
6



Miller Knot
20.13
15.66
14.94
16.910
7



Fish-N-Fool (original)
18.87
16.27
14.99
16.710
8



Palomar
17.37
17.36
15.11
16.613
9



Porter
19.89
10.87
18.76
16.507
10



Grinner
17.10
17.50
14.90
16.500
11



Cheek Knot
19.27
13.95
15.97
16.397
12



Eugene Bend
17.78
15.70
14.64
16.040
13



Trilene
17.58
14.32
14.97
15.623
14



Gryp
17.80
14.68
14.29
15.590
15



Three "G"
18.83
9.71
15.73
14.757
16



Improved Clinch
16.12
7.22
14.01
12.450
17



No-Name Homemade
17.12
5.22
14.91
12.417
18












Note: Ranking without Mono

Braid
Fluoro
Average
Rank



Berkley Braid

17.36
19.69
18.525
1



Triple Loop

16.07
19.74
17.905
2



Improved Reverse Clinch

18.96
16.46
17.710
3



Burke Knot

18.62
16.49
17.555
4



Fish-N-Fool (updated)

19.44
15.21
17.325
5



San Diego Jam

17.84
15.25
16.545
6



Palomar

17.36
15.11
16.235
7



Grinner

17.50
14.90
16.200
8



Fish-N-Fool (original)

16.27
14.99
15.630
9



Miller Knot

15.66
14.94
15.300
10



Eugene Bend

15.70
14.64
15.170
11



Cheek Knot

13.95
15.97
14.960
12



Porter

10.87
18.76
14.815
13



Trilene

14.32
14.97
14.645
14



Gryp

14.68
14.29
14.485
15



Three "G"

9.71
15.73
12.720
16



Improved Clinch

7.22
14.01
10.615
17



No-Name Homemade

5.22
14.91
10.065
18

jcg
07-19-2013, 11:59 AM
Going to save this spot for future results.

hooks
07-19-2013, 12:37 PM
Paulus Just fishing (http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/index.htm)

Line and knot testing.

jcg
07-19-2013, 02:57 PM
Here is a list of all the Knot Wars episodes. It lists the winning knot on the left, and the losing knot on the right. Note that the 2013 series used "Lite" line, 6lb fluoro, 8lb mono and 6lb braid. The 2009 results have a few anomalies compared to the data they supplied from my previous post. In 2009 episode 4 the miller lost (avg 16.910) to the san diego jam (avg 16.950), and then the following week the fish n fool (avg 16.710) beat the miller (avg 16.910)???? Based on the data the san diego jam should have been the 2009 winner, not the fish n fool.













2008
Winner

Loser
Knot
Line



Episode
Knot 1

Knot 2
Type
Type












1
Improved Clinch

Figure 8
Line to Lure
M/B/F



2
Jansik

Improved Clinch
Line to Lure
M/B/F



3
Eye Crosser

Jansi
Line to Lure
M/B/F



4
Eye Crosser

Uni (or Duncan Loop)
Line to Lure
M/B/F



5
Palomar

Eye Crosser
Line to Lure
M/B/F



6
Palomar

Trilene
Line to Lure
M/B/F



7
Palomar

World's Fair
Line to Lure
M/B/F












8
Leader

Fisherman's Bend
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



9
Leader

Barrel
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



10
Leader

Surgeon
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



11
Uni to Uni

Leader
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



12
Uni to Uni

Wolf
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



13
Uni to Uni

Blood
Line to Leader
B -> M/F





















2009
Winner

Loser
Knot
Line



Episode
Knot 1

Knot 2
Type
Type












1
Gryp

No Name
Line to Lure
M/B/F



2
Eugene Bend

Gryp
Line to Lure
M/B/F



3
Miller

Eugene Bend
Line to Lure
M/B/F



4
Miller

San Diego Jam
Line to Lure
M/B/F



5
Fish n Fool

Miller
Line to Lure
M/B/F



6
Fish n Fool

Grinner
Line to Lure
M/B/F



7
Fish n Fool

Palomar
Line to Lure
M/B/F












8
Compound Loop

Homer Rhode
Loop
M/B/F



9
McNally Loop

Compound Loop
Loop
M/B/F



10
McNally Loop

Two Wrap Hangmans
Loop
M/B/F



11
King Sling

McNally Loop
Loop
M/B/F





















2010
Winner

Loser
Knot
Line



Episode
Knot 1

Knot 2
Type
Type












1
Improved Reverse Clinch

3G
Line to Lure
M/B/F



2
Improved Reverse Clinch

Porter
Line to Lure
M/B/F



3
Triple Loop

Improved Reverse Clinch
Line to Lure
M/B/F



4
Berkley Braid

Triple Loop
Line to Lure
M/B/F



5
Berkley Braid

Burke
Line to Lure
M/B/F



6
Berkley Braid

Cheek
Line to Lure
M/B/F



7
Berkley Braid

Fish n' Fool
Line to Lure
M/B/F












8
Double Centauri

Yucatan
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



9
Water

Double Centauri
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



10
J

Water
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



11
J

Shocker
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



12
Modified Albright

Shocker
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



13
Modified Albright

Uni to Uni
Line to Leader
B -> M/F





















2011
Winner

Loser
Knot
Line



Episode
Knot 1

Knot 2
Type
Type












1
Kramer

Centauri
Line to Lure
M/B/F



2
Moore

Kramer
Line to Lure
M/B/F



3
Moore

Penny
Line to Lure
M/B/F



4
Homer Circle

Moore
Line to Lure
M/B/F



5
Homer Circle

Colby
Line to Lure
M/B/F



6
Homer Circle

Rebeck
Line to Lure
M/B/F



7
Homer Circle

Berkley Braid
Line to Lure
M/B/F












8
Dumhof

Quick Snell
Snell
M/B/F



9
Basic Snell

Dumhof
Snell
M/B/F



10
Basic Snell

Whip Finish
Snell
M/B/F



11
Basic Snell

Two Circle Turle
Snell
M/B/F



12
Basic Snell

Silly Snell
Snell
M/B/F



13
Basic Snell

Lock
Snell
M/B/F





















2012
Winner

Loser
Knot
Line



Episode
Knot 1

Knot 2
Type
Type












1
Eye Crosser

Improved Clinch
Line to Lure
Mono only



2
Eye Crosser

Cheek
Line to Lure
Mono only



3
Eye Crosser

Homer Circle
Line to Lure
Mono only



4
Trilene

Eye Crosser
Line to Lure
Mono only



5
Trilene

World's Fair
Line to Lure
Mono only



6
Trilene

Fish n' Fool
Line to Lure
Mono only



7
Trilene

No Name
Line to Lure
Mono only



8
Trilene

Palomar
Line to Lure
Mono only












9
Nanofil

King Sling
Line to Lure
Braid only



10
Rebeck

Nanofil
Line to Lure
Braid only



11
Rebeck

Burke
Line to Lure
Braid only



12
Rebeck

Palomar
Line to Lure
Braid only





















2013
Winner

Loser
Knot
Line



Episode
Knot 1

Knot 2
Type
Type












1
World's Fair

Improved Clinch
Line to Lure
M/B/F



2
World's Fair

Porter
Line to Lure
M/B/F



3
Fish n Fool

World's Fair
Line to Lure
M/B/F



4
Fish n Fool

Eugene Bend
Line to Lure
M/B/F



5
Palomar

Fish n Fool
Line to Lure
M/B/F



6
Palomar

Burke
Line to Lure
M/B/F



7
Palomar

Reverse Improved Clinch
Line to Lure
M/B/F












8
Leader

Surgeon
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



9
Blood

Leader
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



10
Uni to Uni

Blood
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



11
Uni to Uni

Water
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



12
Uni to Uni

J
Line to Leader
B -> M/F



13
Modified Albright

Uni to Uni
Line to Leader
B -> M/F

jcg
07-19-2013, 02:59 PM
Looks interesting I'll have to email him and see if his results match the data I've posted so far which is just from knot wars results.


Going to save this spot for future results.

Jimmy_M
07-19-2013, 03:05 PM
IMO the Palomar is hard to beat. Quick, simple, and very strong.

There is also conflicting information here:

2009 - Fish n Fool beats Palomar, line to lure
2013 - Palomar beats Fish n Fool, line to lure.

In a true comparison you would use the same brands and sizes year over year otherwise there are too many variables.

jcg
07-19-2013, 03:38 PM
One thing I have noticed over the years of watching knot wars and testing / trying out some of the knots I have learned about is that there are a LOT of knots that have different names but are really the same knot with a minor modification. I've also noticed that some knots look different when you see the video of how they are tied, but really aren't once they get cinched down.

In that regard lets look at a standard cinch knot. You put the line through the eye, wrap it up the main line 6 times and then back down through the loop at the eye. Now look at the berkley braid knot (see 2010 episode 4), but lets NOT double the line (and only do 6 wraps). In this case the line gets wrapped from the top down, around both lines and through the same loop at the eye of the hook. As you pull down on the tag end the wraps basically unravel and end up just like the clinch knots wraps. Just tie this knot with a piece of rope and you will see that once they are cinched down they are exactly the same (see the picture below)! The big difference is it's much easier to cinch down the standard cinch knot, so it won't stress the line as much!

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p727/johng2013/DSC00017_zps6f6827d3.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/johng2013/media/DSC00017_zps6f6827d3.jpg.html)

This is the same for knots like the current 2011 champion the homer circle where a portion of the knot is looped up the line and then back down the line. The line to leader winner the modified albright is also another great example. If instead of going up and down the line, you just double the number of times up the line you get the exact same knot (again try it with some rope and you'll see). The big issue again is there is much less stress put on the line when you just double the wraps up!

Knowing this we can look at some knots now and see what they are.

- The improved reverse clinch is a reverse clinch with the line through the hook eye 2 times
- The berkley braid (2010 winner) is a double line clinch knot with 8 wraps.
- The porter knot (2010, episode 2 AND 2013 episode 2) is the same as the berkley braid with only 5 wraps instead of 8. It lost in episode 2 due to slipping with braid, so just goes to show the extra 3 wraps are critical.
- The eye crosser (2008 episode 5) is a uni knot (2008 episode 4) with the line through the hook eye 2 times and 2 wraps
- The fish n fool (2009 episode 5) is a uni knot with the line through the hook eye 2 times and 5 wraps, ie: an enhanced eye crosser.
- The burke knot (2010 episode 5) is a double line 5 wrap uni knot
- The trilene (2012 episode 6) is just a clinch with the line through the hook eye 2 times
- The triple loop (2010 episode 3) is a clinch with the line through the hook eye 3 times
- The colby (2011 episode 5) is a double line reverse clinch with 4 wraps. Note there is a popular youtube video of Shawn Grigsby tying what he says is the strongest knot for fluoro, but he doesn't know the name of the knot. It's this knot with only 3 wraps (so not as strong), and the colby lost in 2011 episode 5 to the eventual champ (the homer circle)

So those are my observations about some of the knots and if there are others please post them.

jcg
07-19-2013, 03:59 PM
As you can see from the data in the first post the Palomar is really not that great of a knot. It won 2008, but since then many new knots have handily beaten it. The data shows the berkley braid has an avg of 18.5 lbs vs the palomar at only 16.2. Plus the berkley braid got beaten in 2011, so the new champ is the homer circle. I used the palomar for a while this year (my go to has always been the improved reverse clinch which I submitted to knot wars for testing), but after having 2 palomar fluoro knots break I stopped (and that is what got me interested in researching/testing knots again). If you google "palomar and fluoro breaking" you will find it's got issues, or google "best knot for fluorocarbon Shawn Grigsby" and the link below comes up. The knot Shawn shows is a 3 wrap version of the colby knot (which is just a double line reverse clinch knot) - see 2011 episode 5.

Shaw Grigsby demonstrates the BEST knot for fluorocarbon line.wmv - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I905PXIYww)

Note that the 2013 testing used "lite" line (all other years used heavier line), and in 2013 they didn't put the palomar up against the best of the winners (ie. the berkley braid, the triple loop or the homer circle), and I have no idea why.



IMO the Palomar is hard to beat. Quick, simple, and very strong.

There is also conflicting information here:

2009 - Fish n Fool beats Palomar, line to lure
2013 - Palomar beats Fish n Fool, line to lure.

In a true comparison you would use the same brands and sizes year over year otherwise there are too many variables.

jcg
07-20-2013, 07:22 AM
If we go back to the data in post #1 (and take into account the 2011 winner) we can see the top 6 knots in order of strength are:

1. Homer Circle - single eye clinch 6 wrap with the addition of a knot to hold the tag end
2. Berkley Braid - double line clinch 8 wrap
3. Burke - double line uni 5 wrap
4. Triple Loop - triple eye clinch 6 wrap
5. Improved Reverse Clinch - double eye 6 wrap reverse clinch
6. San Diego Jam - single eye clinch 5 wrap, but run tag end through top loop at end (like a reverse clinch does).

Note: that the 2009 episode 4 show is the debut of the san diego jam. The video shows 5 wraps, but the host says 7 wraps? Also the data from post #1 shows the San Diego Jam beats the Miller knot, but for some reason the Miller knot wins??? Based on the data the San Diego Jam should have won in 2009, not the fish n fool. The 2008 episode 4 also has a similar error where the uni / duncan loop knot is shown with 4 wraps, but the host says 3.

I don't fish mono, but the data from post #1 shows the Miller knot as the strongest knot for mono, with the Porter being a close 2nd. It's quite odd that the 2012 shows that tested only mono didn't include either of these knots??? The 2012 champ ended up being the Trilene knot, but if I used Mono I'd definitely learn the Miller knot as it is the clear champ.

These same type of omissions were done in 2013 (lite line) when they omitted the 2010 champ (berkley braid) AND 2011 champ (homer circle) from the testing and the Palomar knot ended up winning. Only thing I can think is they need stuff for the 2014 shows, so maybe they did this on purpose.

Anyways since I only fish braid/fluoro lets take a look at the order of the top knots for just these lines. Turns out they are the same knots just in a different order: Homer Circle, Berkley Braid, Triple Loop, Improved Reverse Clinch, Burke, San Diego Jam.

So we have our top knots and next I'll look at what these knots have in common. Is there something about them that is similar and makes them the strongest knots? Look at the descriptions of the knots and notice they are almost all some form of a clinch knot! Could we make some improvements to come up with an even better knot?

Line Stretcher
07-20-2013, 08:44 AM
I target Trohphy Trout and Steelhead (anadromous and non-anadromous).

Although I have used braid, it's not on the top of my list of lines that I like for this type of fishing. My preference is now hybrid mono with a flourocarbon leader using terminal tackle (barrel swivels) between the two.

In this application, I use the improved Uni-Knot for mono to swivel and the fishin fool for everything tied on the Flourocarbon.

Typically, I run 12lb test because it holds up well in the DR clips and also stands up to line twist longer than lighter lines. In my business I like to go with consistency rather than trial and error. If a rig is consistently good at getting fish to the boat that's what I go with most often.

If you want to do a bunch of knot testing, that's cool just make sure that you can consistently and easily tie the knot so it achieves the knot strength that it is supposed to.

hooks
07-20-2013, 11:29 AM
14lb. Berkley Crystal with a surgeons loop to barrel swivel. 30' top shot 12lb. Seguar InvizX with clinch knot to barrel swivel. InvizX with a palomar knot to #1 Duo-lock snap. Hasn't failed me yet.


http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s288/hooks-pic/fishing%20gear/lineknots001.jpg

FresnoJack
07-20-2013, 03:17 PM
Here ia s link the You Tube site for North American Fishing Club and the Knot Wars videos.

NorthAmericanFishing - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/NorthAmericanFishing)


Has there even been any knot testing done by forum members? I searched on knot testing but nothing came up, or maybe this isn't the right forum to post on that? I'm building a homemade knot tester as I want to run some experiments and expand on what I've learned from the Knot Wars show on TV. Knot wars has their data for the 2009/2010 seasons and I'll post it below. I don't have their 2011 data, but the homer circle did beat the berkley braid which is the champion below.

I want to run some tests on the top knots to see if they can be improved, by adding more/less wraps, running the line through the hook eye twice (for those that didn't do that), etc. I never fish with mono, so I'll be mostly testing braid/fluoro. If you do the ranking below based just on those 2 lines the top 5 in order are: berkley braid, triple loop, improved reverse clinch (which I submitted to knot wars way back in 2008), burke and san diego jam. Any interest in this or ideas for testing?



Braid
Fluoro
Average
Rank


Berkley Braid
19.82
17.36
19.69
18.957
1


Burke Knot
19.32
18.62
16.49
18.143
2


Triple Loop
18.49
16.07
19.74
18.100
3


Improved Reverse Clinch
17.67
18.96
16.46
17.697
4


San Diego Jam
17.76
17.84
15.25
16.950
5


Miller Knot
20.13
15.66
14.94
16.910
6


Fish-N-Fool
18.87
16.27
14.99
16.710
7


Palomar
17.37
17.36
15.11
16.613
8


Porter
19.89
10.87
18.76
16.507
9


Grinner
17.10
17.50
14.90
16.500
10


Cheek Knot
19.27
13.95
15.97
16.397
11


Eugene Bend
17.78
15.70
14.64
16.040
12


Gryp
17.80
14.68
14.29
15.590
13


Three "G"
18.83
9.71
15.73
14.757
14


No-Name Homemade
17.12
5.22
14.91
12.417
15

jcg
07-20-2013, 05:14 PM
What is an improved uni knot? I googled it and nothing comes up about how to tie it. Remember as per my description on knots (and my dislike for new names of knots that are bascially the same expect more wraps or times through the hook eye), the fish n fool is just an "improved" uni knot. The fish n fool is a uni with 2 times through the hook eye (and 5 wraps).

Note that the triple loop and berkley braid knots are rated #1 and #2 with fluoro and are super easy to tie, and both knots have a breaking strength with fluoro almost 5lbs higher!! than the fish n fool.

jcg


I target Trohphy Trout and Steelhead (anadromous and non-anadromous).

Although I have used braid, it's not on the top of my list of lines that I like for this type of fishing. My preference is now hybrid mono with a flourocarbon leader using terminal tackle (barrel swivels) between the two.

In this application, I use the improved Uni-Knot for mono to swivel and the fishin fool for everything tied on the Flourocarbon.

Typically, I run 12lb test because it holds up well in the DR clips and also stands up to line twist longer than lighter lines. In my business I like to go with consistency rather than trial and error. If a rig is consistently good at getting fish to the boat that's what I go with most often.

If you want to do a bunch of knot testing, that's cool just make sure that you can consistently and easily tie the knot so it achieves the knot strength that it is supposed to.

hooks
07-20-2013, 05:36 PM
http://youtu.be/qA4wCKis3HM

FresnoJack
07-20-2013, 09:28 PM
I agree with you, there are too many different names for the same knots.

To my understanding the clinch knot and the uni knot are the same knot.

Also, the improved clinch knot and the fish-n-fool knot are the same knot. These each go through the eye of the hook twice, then around the line, etc. Double through the eye makes the knot less likely to slip.

To add to the naming confusion, the Trilene knot is the same knot as the improved clinch and the fish-n-fool knot. Berkley named the improved clinch/fisherman's knot, the 'Trilene knot' to aid its own marketing.

I have little dexterity and poor vision, so I learned tie the knot in a much different way. Rather than try to describe the steps involved, I found a video showing how to tie the knot a la FresnoJack!

Trilene Knot For Fishing [Catfishing Quick Tips #5] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lYpTFhoD3M&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL88E8673CAA1671CF)



What is an improved uni knot? I googled it and nothing comes up about how to tie it. Remember as per my description on knots (and my dislike for new names of knots that are bascially the same expect more wraps or times through the hook eye), the fish n fool is just an "improved" uni knot. The fish n fool is a uni with 2 times through the hook eye (and 5 wraps).

Note that the triple loop and berkley braid knots are rated #1 and #2 with fluoro and are super easy to tie, and both knots have a breaking strength with fluoro almost 5lbs higher!! than the fish n fool.

jcg

jcg
07-21-2013, 09:17 AM
The clinch and the uni are definitely not the same knot, just google it (or see link below) or watch the knot wars episodes with those knots (see my episode history post earlier). The trilene is a clinch knot (not improved since it doesn't go back through the top loop) with the line going through the hook eye twice. The fish n fool is also not the same as an improved clinch, it is a uni knot with the line through the hook eye 2 times. The trilene is the mono line winner (but wasn't tested against the miller which would most likely beat it based on results in post #1), but there are much better knots for braid/fluoro.

Fishing Knots | How to Tie Every Fishing Knot | Animated Fishing Knots plus Illustrated Fishing Knots (http://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/)

jcg


I agree with you, there are too many different names for the same knots.

To my understanding the clinch knot and the uni knot are the same knot.

Also, the improved clinch knot and the fish-n-fool knot are the same knot. These each go through the eye of the hook twice, then around the line, etc. Double through the eye makes the knot less likely to slip.

To add to the naming confusion, the Trilene knot is the same knot as the improved clinch and the fish-n-fool knot. Berkley named the improved clinch/fisherman's knot, the 'Trilene knot' to aid its own marketing.

I have little dexterity and poor vision, so I learned tie the knot in a much different way. Rather than try to describe the steps involved, I found a video showing how to tie the knot a la FresnoJack!

Trilene Knot For Fishing [Catfishing Quick Tips #5] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lYpTFhoD3M&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL88E8673CAA1671CF)

jcg
07-21-2013, 01:42 PM
As I mentioned in my prior post lets look at what the top 6 knots have in common to see if we can see what makes a "great" knot. In the 3rd year (2010) of knot wars they stated at the beginning of testing "that all knots would have double line or a minimum of 2 passes through the hook eye as those knots are the strongest". That had been a characteristic of past champions, but then look what happens in 2011 - the homer circle wins and it only has 1 pass through the hook eye.

I don't have the individual results for mono/braid/fluoro for the homer circle, so we don't know if it excels on one type of line or not. We also know in 2011 with the mono only testing that the homer circle got beat, so it's definitely not the best knot for mono. We do know that the top 2 from the first post (berkley braid and burke) were not the best in any single category, but instead are very good and consistent across all line types. Of the top 6 knots the triple loop got the best score for fluoro, and the improved reverse clinch got the best score on braid.

If we look at the delta of the best knot to the worst knot in each line type we see that it is 3.03 for mono, 5.45 for fluoro, and 13.74 for braid. From this we see that mono is very forgiving, but braid clearly is not. Braid is known for slipping, so the best knots have to overcome that issue.

What else do the top knots have in common? Well the homer circle, burke, improved reverse clinch and san diego jam (4 of the 6) are all "slip" knots. Meaning that if you tighten the knot part the knot just slips down the main line to the hook eye. I'm guessing this is important as it puts virtually no stress on the main line during the cinching of the knot. Of the top 6 I'd say the only knot that is difficult to cinch is the berkley braid, but it comes in at the top so I guess as long as you are careful and wet the knot down you are OK. 4 of the knots in the top 6 also have double line or multiple passes through the hook eye, so that looks to be important in a strong knot.

It's interesting to see what the 2nd pass through the hook eye does, and it's easier to see if you tie the knot with rope (which I suggest everyone try). I originally thought that 2 lines through the hook eye helped distributed the load on the line at the back of the eye, but that is not the case. If you tie the knot with rope and pull on the main line on any knot you'll see that all the stress is just on the first loop of the main line on the back of the eye. So the 2nd pass is really about reducing slippage. It makes sense if you think about the fact that the triple loop is near the top of the rankings and all that knot is is a clinch knot with 3 passes through the eye.

After this analysis it seems like we can make a few assumptions about what improvements could be done to make a better knot. I see a few easy improvements that I'll test once I get the knot machine done.

1. double eye homer circle
2. double eye san diego jam
3. triple loop with 8-10 wraps (vs 6). It's clear from the data that the triple loop's weakness was with braid and that must be from slippage, so a few more wraps might fix that.
4. Don't think much can be done with the berkley braid and burke unless I just try a few more wraps with those too. Or actually if we ran the tag end of the berkley braid back up through the top loop it would become a double line san diego jam knot (which has never been tested on knot wars, but if you google it you can see it demonstrated). In that case we probably wouldn't need 8 wraps either as I think the standard double san diego jam uses 6 wraps.
5. Finally we will need a new name for my last knot which I'm going to call the San Francisco Jam (or SF Jam). It's the improved reverse clinch with the tag end run down under the 2 wraps of line in the hook eye. It's basically like a reverse/opposite of the double eye San Diego Jam if you think about it (in that knot the tag end goes under the 2 wraps of line at the hook eye first and then through the top loop). San Francisco is at the opposite end of California as San Diego - hence the name.

I plan on emailing Knot Wars and suggesting all these knots for their 2014 show coming up.

hooks
07-21-2013, 05:24 PM
And to think that when I was a kid I used to tie my kite string to a safety pin with a simple square knot. No reel with a nice drag. Catch catfish in the irrigation canals. :Bear_fishes:

I've come a long way since then!! LOL

I hope your SF JAM wins the contest. :starrolling5ez::starrolling5ez::starrolling5ez::s tarrolling5ez::starrolling5ez:

jcg
07-23-2013, 09:41 AM
It always seemed odd that the fish n fool won in 2009 based on the data posted in my first post (which shows the san diego jam should have won). We'll I found these 2 links on the web that say that knot wars updated their info (obviously not the .pdf that they posted) regarding the fish n fool breaking strengths, and this makes much more sense. The link also has the data for the improved clinch and trilene knot, so I'll update my first post with this new info. The knot wars site used to put these averages next to the knots in the video section but for some odd reason they removed it at some point (hopefully they will put it back with the 2011-2013 data too).

Now that we have the data for the Trilene knot one also has to ask how the heck did it win the mono only in 2012? The fish n fool is almost 3 lbs stronger with mono, but some how the Trilene beats it?????

http://www.theb*******s.com/bassin-forums/index.php?topic=30717.5;wap2

any simple knots other than a polymer

(http://www.ultimatebass.com/bass-fishing-forum/index.php?topic=34732.35;wap2)

Jimmy_M
07-23-2013, 12:45 PM
Let... It... Go... :www_MyEmoticons_com

hooks
07-23-2013, 07:51 PM
Let... It... Go... :www_MyEmoticons_com




Covey leader to identify Baker Team - Rambo, Messner, Ortega, Coletta, Jurgensen, Berry, Krakauer confirm! This is Colonel Trautman. Talk to me, Johnny

Hamachi_Kama
07-24-2013, 11:03 AM
The strongest knot out there? The one you can tie perfectly.

I use the uni-knot for terminal gear 99% of the time. Big irons or trolling feathers get a palomar, but everything else gets the uni. I also use an Albright with a 5 turn reverse uni to lock it all down when doing flouro/spectra connections. Mono/flouro connections? A seaguar knot is super strong and easy to tie.

I tested my uni knot a few years back whilst helping out @ the Berkeley Big Bass Challenge. Sucker broke in the very high 90 percentile every time. That, and tons of nice fish over the years without a knot failure keep me tying these knots.

CBRetriever
08-06-2013, 04:45 PM
This is my first post. I love this thread probably because I have been testing knots lately. I am very eager to know what the fish n fool (up dated) is. It has a very impressive number for braid.

jcg
08-10-2013, 10:57 AM
OK, I finally did some testing on the knot testing machine I built so here is an update. It's interesting to note with the new data regarding the fish n fool knot that it got the highest scores of all 18 knots in the mono category AND in the braid category. We also have a direct comparison of the exact same knot - one tied with multiple loops through the hook eye vs the other with double line. The fishin n fool is a 5 wrap uni knot with the line through the hook eye twice, while the burke knot is a 5 wrap uni knot with double line.

For some reason the fish n fool isn't that great with fluoro as the burke knot is almost 1.25lbs stronger with that line type, and it's very difficult to tell why that is (as the fish n fool is better by almost 1lb in both the other categories). I did try one test with the burke knot where I pulled out the tag end version of the line that is on the back of the hook eye and then tightened it down, and guess what the loop in the tag end was still there when the line broke, so it isn't taking any stress at all. Quite interesting and I did the same thing for the berkley braid knot with identical results.

It seems that the extra line next to the main line that is getting wrapped around with the tag end is just helping buffer the shock (or pinching) of the main line with these double line knots.

As for the knot tester the issue is the digitial fishing scale doesn't have a peak hold function, so I can get a readout but it is difficult to get the max reading every time as it disappears the instant the knot breaks. I need to get a digital push pull gauge (those have peak hold functions), but unfortunately just missed a used one on ebay and new ones are too expensive.

For now I've done some basic testing to see if knots slip, about where they break, etc. With the new knot result data I've changed the top knots I'm testing. The berkley braid pretty much whoops the san diego jam, and it is tied just like a san diego jam (but with double line and it doesn't get the extra crimp by going through the top loop). So the san diego jam is out. I also did some preliminary tests with the colby (but upped the # of wraps from 4 to 6). The colby is just a double line reverse clinch, and in all my testing the knot is breaking at the back of the hook eye showing it is close to a 100% knot. Remember the original colby (4 wrap) only got tested once and that was against the homer circle which is the current knot wars champ.

As it stands now if you are using a homer circle, berkley braid, fish n fool or 6 wrap colby / reverse clinch you are using what looks to be one of the strongest knots out there. All of these knots are testing at about the same breaking point on my knot tester. Out of these my favorite and the one I'm switching to is the 6 wrap colby as it's super fast to tie, and is super easy to cinch down as it's a slip knot and puts virtually no stress on the main line. You can see Alton Jones tie the standard reverse clinch at the link below to see how fast it is, so just tie this same knot with double line.

Anyways, I've enjoyed this thread and I've learned a lot about knots in the process - and hopefully you have too! I guess for now that's it unless I find an inexpensive digital push pull gauge. I've submitted a bunch of new knots to knot wars so hopefully they will test some of them in the next edition of knot wars.

http://fishing.wonderhowto.com/how-to/tie-reverse-clinch-knot-with-alton-jones-162619/

CBRetriever
08-10-2013, 03:36 PM
I have been testing knots too. I just compare one knot to another, I don't care about exact breaking point. I still don't know what the fish n fool (up-dated) is but I would like to.
In my knot to knot test the Berkley Braid knot really came on when tied with 12 wraps with braided line. It cinched down good too. In my testing it is better than the 6 turn Burke, double line uni and a 10 to 12 turn Fish n fool. The Burke and fish n fool were about equal.
The Colby, a double line Pitzen, is a very good knot with Fluoro but the Berkley Braid-6 turn is a little stronger. However, I find the Colby easier to tie.
The reverse improved clinch is very fast and easy to tie and strong with braid but not as strong as Berkley Braid-12 turn, Burke-6 turn or Fish N Fool-10 turn.

jcg
08-11-2013, 09:43 AM
The fish n fool (updated) is just the updated results from knot wars for the fish n fool knot. The .pdf on their website has the original / wrong results, but if you google "fish n fool 20.54" you will see a few blog posts with the correct results for that knot.


I have been testing knots too. I just compare one knot to another, I don't care about exact breaking point. I still don't know what the fish n fool (up-dated) is but I would like to.
In my knot to knot test the Berkley Braid knot really came on when tied with 12 wraps with braided line. It cinched down good too. In my testing it is better than the 6 turn Burke, double line uni and a 10 to 12 turn Fish n fool. The Burke and fish n fool were about equal.
The Colby, a double line Pitzen, is a very good knot with Fluoro but the Berkley Braid-6 turn is a little stronger. However, I find the Colby easier to tie.
The reverse improved clinch is very fast and easy to tie and strong with braid but not as strong as Berkley Braid-12 turn, Burke-6 turn or Fish N Fool-10 turn.

CBRetriever
08-11-2013, 04:32 PM
Thank You, JCG.

Katfish
08-11-2013, 05:53 PM
I imagine there is some very useful info here I just have a hard time reading through it..

Makes my eyes/brain hurt....

Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

CBRetriever
08-12-2013, 11:52 AM
"Makes my eyes/brain hurt...." Yes Katfish, it makes me a bit of a nerd out in the shop testing knots!