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View Full Version : Hunting in CA is coming to an end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Reel Fun
10-12-2013, 11:31 AM
Jerry Brown signs lead ammo ban, vetoes bill on semi-automatic rifles in California - Capitol and California - The Sacramento Bee (http://www.sacbee.com/2013/10/11/5815352/jerry-brown-signs-lead-ammo-ban.html) RF

LURKER916
10-12-2013, 12:54 PM
No it's not....

Relax, take a deep breath..... We can still hunt with slings! And sticks...


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Katfish
10-12-2013, 02:11 PM
No it's not....

Relax, take a deep breath..... We can still hunt with slings! And sticks...


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Oh wait.
Don't forget rocks.

But only rocks from within 50 feet of the kill.

You can't transport the rocks any further or it may introduce invasive rocks. Thereby killing all plants and wildlife in the area.



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LURKER916
10-12-2013, 02:16 PM
Also don't forget that rocks must be lead free....

Rockit73
10-12-2013, 05:44 PM
No worries.
647 grain solid brass
What you need killed?

I'm thinking squirrels at 20 yards.

(So tired of these retarded politicians)

ef9boy88
10-12-2013, 06:06 PM
Well hunting got more expensive, which really sucks... but at least they vetoed repeating the stupidity that was the "Assault Weapons" ban. Especially when you consider people like me have avoided AR and Ak style weapons in favor of things like Mini 14 and SKS (not "assault wepons") :nana:

Reel Fun
10-12-2013, 07:27 PM
They will let thousands of fisherman drop many thousands of 2-3 lb lead balls to the ocean floor every salmon season but a 40 grain 22lr is going to do damage? And they say they will let the Fish & Game Commission figure out the rest???????????? Are you friggin kiding me!! They cant even remember to ask if its OK to carry a spear gun into the AR Parkway before passing a law to allow spear fishing in the AR?? That's the most useless group of folks I have ever seen!! Hunters do not shoot a lot of lead......just make all shotguns shoot steel (even clay) and let the rifles and hundguns shoot lead......its that simple. Deer/elk hunters who shoot 5-10 times a year at the range and once or at most twice a year at deer should not have to pay for this stupid law! California just wants to lead the nation in tough gun laws. WHATS NEXT!!!!???? RF

ef9boy88
10-12-2013, 09:30 PM
Agreed, but don't worry there's one about banning lead weights too. I'm wondering about 100 LL. Can't shoot steel ammo at most ranges due to fire hazard.

ef9boy88
10-12-2013, 11:33 PM
So upon further reading as well as looking at the ammo it's a complete crock..... I highly doubt that the lead is coming from hunters ammunition, however the lead free ammo isn't less effective. It is more expensive which is probably more to the point on both ends. Attempting to price people out of hunting. Hunter mad because ammo prices just sky rocketed again and now you can't cast your own ammo.

ApexPredator
10-12-2013, 11:38 PM
If you plan on eating your kill why wouldn't you want to use non-lead rounds?

outdoordude
10-13-2013, 05:06 AM
If you plan on eating your kill why wouldn't you want to use non-lead rounds?
More crock. If were a problem more hunters would show signs of lead poisoning. Just look at who sponsored the bill. Making it more expensive is only the first step.

Reel Fun
10-13-2013, 06:20 AM
And its only affecting hunters!! So gang members can still shoot law abiding citizens with lead right???? If it were "so bad" they would outlaw the military use of it as well? The military puts a whole lot of lead in the ground also!! Big game hunters should be allowed to use lead....they already have the waterfowl guys steel which makes sense. And what are they going to do about all the guys who have lead either in a supply of ammo or a supply of reloading stuff? I have a lot of ammo!!!! And whatever they approve will not only cost more but it will most likely be harder on barrels as well? Common sense needs to be applied here!! RF

Rockit73
10-13-2013, 07:27 AM
If you plan on eating your kill why wouldn't you want to use non-lead rounds?
Do you catch and release or do you only fish with tungsten weights, lures painted with foodsafe coatings and fresh organic baits prepared according to FDA recomendations?

Don't forget your hairnet and gloves.

I can understand limiting lead usage in some areas, but banning it state wide is a back door attack on 2a rights more than an enviromental issue.

Rockit73
10-13-2013, 07:31 AM
So gang members can still shoot law abiding citizens with lead right????
I'm sure the'll only steal the lead free stuff if the're planning on lighting someone up.

Reel Fun
10-13-2013, 07:59 AM
And the lead free law only pertains to "hunting"?? So plinkers...you know the ones who deposit the most lead in the ground of all gun owners are still allowed to "plink" with lead? But the guy who shoots once a year at a deer/elk (once a year if he is extremely lucky with the big game numbers here in ca!!) gets punished??? RF

ApexPredator
10-13-2013, 10:41 AM
Do you catch and release or do you only fish with tungsten weights, lures painted with foodsafe coatings and fresh organic baits prepared according to FDA recomendations?

Don't forget your hairnet and gloves.

I can understand limiting lead usage in some areas, but banning it state wide is a back door attack on 2a rights more than an enviromental issue.

I see no correlation between your comment and what the OP is talking about. If fishing weights went through the muscle of the fish and splintered then yes I would use tungsten or copper.

Waterfowl hunters already have to use steel because ducks eat the shot. Carrion birds are known for dying from ingesting lead fragments left. Do you take home all of the entrails you remove from your kill? If not have any way to make sure no lead fragments are in any of what you leave in the field?

I am all for 2nd amendment rights but this one is a stretch.

And Reelfun, if your only shooting less than a box of ammo a year how is this an issue? Your annual expense went up 5 bucks, not much of a reason to get worked up over.

ApexPredator
10-13-2013, 10:51 AM
And its only affecting hunters!! So gang members can still shoot law abiding citizens with lead right???? If it were "so bad" they would outlaw the military use of it as well? The military puts a whole lot of lead in the ground also!! ... And whatever they approve will not only cost more but it will most likely be harder on barrels as well? Common sense needs to be applied here!! RF

Criminals not following laws... white valid it is weightless.

Why would the military stop using lead?

How is a solid copper bullet harder on a barrel than a copper plated lead bullet?

Reel Fun
10-13-2013, 11:17 AM
I will tell you just how stupid this law is!! The DFW Game Wardens Association sent a letter to Gov. Brown saying the wardens DO NOT SUPPORT this law! They said there is no evidence that supports this law state wide. Who would know better than the actual guys/gals who work in the forest everyday? In certain areas....but that has been addressed already. And its not only because waterfowl eats lead....but each shot deposits 1-2 oz of lead into the water and that gets into the groundwater as well. Also signed into law was a bill that makes any magazine with more than a 10 rd capacity illegal? So my old Marlin (tube mag) 22 lever action is illegal? RF

Reel Fun
10-13-2013, 11:45 AM
Criminals not following laws... white valid it is weightless.

Why would the military stop using lead?

How is a solid copper bullet harder on a barrel than a copper plated lead bullet? Well according to the bills author its because lead poses a threat when fired onto state lands and into waterways? Well waterfowl guys have been shooting steel for many years and hunters do not got out and shoot tons of rounds! It kinda scares off what you are hunting for ya know? So banning lead for "hunting" is stupid!! And my point is if its bad for drinking water or "whatever" than the military should be included in this law because 5.56 nato (223) rounds and all other bullets the military uses for that matter are lead and shot on US soil (practice) and those lead bullets do the same "damage" as a 30-30 bullet. RF

hooks
10-13-2013, 12:21 PM
How is that Avgas law suit coming along there in California? Last I heard it isn't.

Yes, aviation fuel emerged as the largest source of lead emissions in the U.S. once lead was phased out of automotive gasoline beginning in the 1970s. While jets, which comprise the majority of commercial aircraft, don’t use leaded fuel, smaller, piston-engine planes use enough leaded aviation fuel (nicknamed “avgas”) to account for half of the lead pollution in American skies, making it a real air quality issue.



Does the Continued Use of Lead in Aviation Fuel Endanger Public Health and the Environment?: Scientific American (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=lead-in-aviation-fuel)

Seems like there is no big hurry to "get the lead out"?

I mean 5 years minimum for lead bullets unless there is a law suit/injunctions etc.

They outlawed lead in gas 40 years ago....well some of it anyway. There are exemptions.

Nascar stopped using leaded gas in 2008. 35 years.

Just saying....

CRABBY
10-13-2013, 12:37 PM
How is a solid copper bullet harder on a barrel than a copper plated lead bullet?Solid Copper is twice an hard as lead,copper coated lead ammo will still give as it goes thru your barrel which maintains the pressure needed to function properly.In my little 22 marlin mod.60 I have also found the copper coated ammo helps prevent the fowling that plain lead ammo produces..Now to the bigger Q,I assume your are a anti hunter who only wants what is best for our wildlife bla bla bla,well that's cool but think of this!!If you shoot a deer with a 30-30 150 grain bullet at 100 yards an assuming your a good shot,that deer is dead almost immediately,not much pain or suffering involved,that's due to the expansion an knock down power that a lead bullet will give you!!Now shoot that same deer with a solid copper bullet,you have no expansion,no knock down power,it just go's right thru,the deer will run off an die somewhere miles away an will suffer a slow an painful death!!Mt.lions,coyotes,etc.will luv you for it!That's why our game wardens are so against it!It's inhumane! Uninformed people passing laws like this will only cause misery for the animals they think there protecting!!!As for barrels they are not made to fire solid copper ammo for obvious reasons.......:yoda1:

Marv
10-13-2013, 01:26 PM
Criminals not following laws... white valid it is weightless.

Why would the military stop using lead?

How is a solid copper bullet harder on a barrel than a copper plated lead bullet?

Military shoots copper to mame, not kill. Key word is mame, they don't want to kill you, just mame you. Same thing with a deer. A copper round unless placed in the perfect spot will mame, not kill. Lead is for knock down, splitting g up and or expanding making a messy exit wound.

The only way to compensate with using copper is to be a dead eye or have a super high velocity rifle where the shear speed of the round causes a shock wave and rupsures vital organs/arteries.

CRABBY
10-13-2013, 02:43 PM
Military shoots copper to mame, not kill. Key word is mame, they don't want to kill you, just mame you. Same thing with a deer. A copper round unless placed in the perfect spot will mame, not kill. Lead is for knock down, splitting g up and or expanding making a messy exit wound.

The only way to compensate with using copper is to be a dead eye or have a super high velocity rifle where the shear speed of the round causes a shock wave and rupsures vital organs/arteries.Marv,using a high or super high velocity rifle will only make the round penetrate an exit cleaner an quicker with no additional knock down power when using solid copper!There's a ton of info on this subject but it's all based on lead!!....:yoda1:

CRABBY
10-13-2013, 03:06 PM
I ck.ed Google for "copper bullets" an found some interesting info.I suggest anyone whos interested do so..Very eye opening!!.....:yoda1:

ApexPredator
10-13-2013, 05:05 PM
Crabby –If you have evidence of bullets forming in your barrel I would love to see it. I am pro-hunter and gun owner, which is why I am in this thread at all. A hollow point copper bullet has similar expansion to a jacketed lead around in what I have seen, same mushroom without the splintering (if you’re counting on splintering for a kill pick a new hobby).

Marv – What military shoots to maim? It is against the uniform code of military justice for our solders to maim and I believe there is a NATO law against it too.

brokea--boater
10-13-2013, 05:07 PM
I posted my comments before when the MLPA started getting everyone pissed off. I'll state it again. The way the antihunting, antifishing, antieverything are winning this is they are going at us by chipping away our foundation. It started many years ago. The examples are to many to ignore. Just look back at the MT.lion issue. Sure maybe the numbers got to low to hunt. But now there's more lion in Ca. than the the rest of the lower 48, yet once closed always closed. the lions are in our outer cities now. They don't want sane management. They went after the trappers and we (sportsman) didn't help them, whether you like trapping or not, they were apart of the outdoorsmen community. Roll forward another 10 -15 years the MLPA's are shutting down our long time fishing grounds with no management or plans to reopen them. The so called biologist have been fishing the Cordell Banks doing their surveys and after all these years I don't believe they open the Banks back up and the fish are there in high, high numbers. After many attempts the antis shut down the houndsman this year. The anti groups are ok with just picking away little by little. Mark my words, they will win unless we outdoorsmen,,all groups join together as one group, one voice for sane scientific management of all our wildlife to promote the hunting,fishing,shooting communities. An attack on the target shooter is a attack on the rest of us, an attack on the hunter is a attack on the fisherman, believe guys. Let your anger motivate you, stay angry and act,,,gregg

Reel Fun
10-13-2013, 05:33 PM
There are far too many guns that need lead......muzzle loaders....cowbow action etc. Lead in bullets is going nowhere!! This law is so stupid it will easily be overturned....Hell even the wardens are fully against it!! But I agree with the prev post....once they take it away its gone for good!! Hunters manage the wild!! They stopped leg hold traps and coyotes are wiping out the pheasants,rabbits etc........Mt lions are wiping out deer.......and the bears will be out of control soon because the houndsman will not hunt them without dogs! They need to understand every action has a reaction!! RF

brokea--boater
10-13-2013, 05:47 PM
I see no correlation between your comment and what the OP is talking about. If fishing weights went through the muscle of the fish and splintered then yes I would use tungsten or copper.

Waterfowl hunters already have to use steel because ducks eat the shot. Carrion birds are known for dying from ingesting lead fragments left. Do you take home all of the entrails you remove from your kill? If not have any way to make sure no lead fragments are in any of what you leave in the field?

I am all for 2nd amendment rights but this one is a stretch.

And Reelfun, if your only shooting less than a box of ammo a year how is this an issue? Your annual expense went up 5 bucks, not much of a reason to get worked up over.

I'm calling BS on you being pro-gun and even owing a gun other than maybe some firearm that you own but don't use it. If you truly spent time in the woods hunting it would be so clear to you that this bill, even though it won't end hunting by its self, but is aimed furthering the big prize, to stop hunting. End the use of lead for the Sport hunter because what?? a gut pile left in the woods is killing populations of what?? and compared to habitat loss?? your scared to eat game shot,killed with lead bullet or shot shell are you zealots for real?? Wildlife in this state needs to be protected from low information, easily recruited urban lifeforms like yourself,,, Go buy you a licence, some tags, and spend some real time in the woods with guys that have a passion for wildlife and promoting the opportunities to keep our heritage alive. There's where your going to learn the truth,,,gregg

ApexPredator
10-13-2013, 07:12 PM
Reel, I was unaware that the cowboy action and muzzle loader crowd was so big.

Brokea, It is already illegal to use lead rifle or pistol ammo while hunting big game and non-game species in almost a forth of California since 2008. Why? Because gut piles left with lead fragments were being eaten by and then poisoning California condors. Has hunting been eradicated from the state and all of our guns taken away from us?

Comparing lead poisoning to habitat loss is a nice idea but it doesn’t solve anything. Conservation like most issues we face doesn’t have a single flip a switch fix and ideas shouldn’t be ruled out because it doesn’t fix 100% of the problem on its own, right now.

I will agree with you that I was easily recruited… just walked right in to the recruiter’s office and signed some papers. Two months later I was walking around with a new green back pack and a funny haircut, what was I thinking…

Reel Fun
10-13-2013, 09:00 PM
All I am trying to say is that banning lead ammo for hunting only is a stupid law!! So lead bullets are ok for everything else just not hunting? I know this is not about condors eating gut piles because where I hunt there are no friggin condors! So this law is not about protecting birds in D3-5 or just about every other deer zone in ca! And now we cant hunt doves with lead shot? I have not hunted ducks because I do not own a steel shooting shotgun....I guess that's over? So Doves,Turkeys,Pheasants,Quail,Squirrels,and Deer are what I hunt and none of those gut piles are eaten by anything endangered? And if you read the law they do not talk about gut piles or condors because they do not range all of CA and the law is for ALL OF CA? So its just about depositing lead on state soil? This law is stupid!! And will not help anything!! Lead is the best bullet material! Stop acting as if this law is needed!! RF

brokea--boater
10-13-2013, 09:01 PM
Cherry picking Condor fatalities and semantics, C'mon recruit. Here's what you wont see in your monthly Peta Newsletter. Condor populations will decline in spite of a state wide ban of lead ammo. Sorry to give you the harsh truth recruit, the Condors are going by the wayside just like the Dino's and thousands of other species because of natural selection and evolution. I think Condors are cool birds and have seen them in Arizona, but they suck at reproducing and raising chicks. Condors are not unique to this state, and the future is not good for them anywhere. This is life recruit. This Bill is purely political, supported by your anti hunting groups. Opportunist hiding behind a bird, and its working for you and your cronies.

YES, mine and others guns are being taken away. Just little at a time so there's just some outrage and not a all out revolt. They tried to get semi auto loader rifles, shotguns this round. All this was, was testing the waters for the next round. So frecking obvious. Your semantics are the same as Feinstein's and your gun control friends. Played that rehearsed message too long, we all see the hidden agenda. I still have hope that the silent in my camp will raise up with one voice and start clearing out Sac,,,gregg

ApexPredator
10-17-2013, 12:28 PM
You yourself asked me in your last post to name an animal affected by lead in guts; I answered and you call that cherry picking...okay, I was just proving that option of an argument is not viable. Of course this bill is political but the main reason I posted in this thread was to bring a different view point or dispel the misinformation that is in this thread like; copper bullets not being effective, military using them to maim, and I don’t think this bill (if passed) will have any more of an effect on hunting than using barbless hooks for sturgeon has stopped people from catching sturgeon. It is important for sportsmen/women alike to have open conversations about change so that we all have the right information to make solid arguments against those that are trying to do away with what we love. Gregg, you are a great example of how not to approach/act in a debate or rational conversation by being emotional and calling people you don’t agree with names. I just hope that you never get the chance to represent sportsmen in front of a government panel as that would do much more damage than this law.

CRABBY
10-17-2013, 12:41 PM
Folks I will suggest once again to google up copper bullets,it may open your eyes somewhat!!!The cost is high but they appear to work well as some have suggested,we're never to old or smart to learn new stuff !!:D

Katfish
10-17-2013, 12:57 PM
Folks I will suggest once again to google up copper bullets,it may open your eyes somewhat!!!The cost is high but they appear to work well as some have suggested,we're never to old or smart to learn new stuff !!:D

After you suggested too last time I took the time to run a search and was indeed surprised.


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Lil' Bone
10-17-2013, 01:13 PM
The Ca. Condor is a evolutionary dead end. They are being kept around by us. We feed them, we breed them, we "protect" them. Without human's help they would be gone. They are nothing more than California’s spotted owl against hunters. IMO

Oh I don't hunt, (cept for ground squirrels at a buddies ranch) But I have no problem with them that do, in fact I kinda of envy them. I do own & shoot guns.

nvthis
10-17-2013, 10:13 PM
If it's not a political ploy, and indeed meant to 'save the condors', then why not pass a regulation to bury gut piles? Jesus, done and over with...

ApexPredator
10-20-2013, 02:54 PM
If it's not a political ploy, and indeed meant to 'save the condors', then why not pass a regulation to bury gut piles? Jesus, done and over with...

How is that rule enforceable? A LEO would need to be present during a field dressing to see if the hunter didn't abide by the new law.

hooks
10-21-2013, 04:59 PM
How is that rule enforceable? A LEO would need to be present during a field dressing to see if the hunter didn't abide by the new law.

Honor system.

nvthis
10-22-2013, 07:40 AM
How is that rule enforceable? A LEO would need to be present during a field dressing to see if the hunter didn't abide by the new law. You cannot be serious? How is any rule enforceable? That is a weak and terrible argument at best, and you know it. Or, maybe you really don't... Besides, even if it proved to be unenforceable, it would have been the responsible first option. Not only that, but understanding what was at stake (i.e lead ammo, California Condors, etc....) hunter response may have even surprised you. Anyway, as far as enforceability, it's obvious you have no working concept of enforcement. Take any law, any law you want, and show me where LEO is there to enforce it 100% of the time (thus your liberally weak attempt to discredit any other viable option).... You can't, because there is no such thing. It's not LEO's presence that makes/breaks a law, it's the threat and fear. LEO has only to catch a handful of lawbreakers to make a law 'enforceable'. The fear of getting caught is usually enough for everybody else. So, to answer your fears, yes. It is completely enforceable. But nice try.

ApexPredator
10-22-2013, 06:53 PM
You cannot be serious? How is any rule enforceable? That is a weak and terrible argument at best, and you know it. Or, maybe you really don't... Besides, even if it proved to be unenforceable, it would have been the responsible first option. Not only that, but understanding what was at stake (i.e lead ammo, California Condors, etc....) hunter response may have even surprised you. Anyway, as far as enforceability, it's obvious you have no working concept of enforcement. Take any law, any law you want, and show me where LEO is there to enforce it 100% of the time (thus your liberally weak attempt to discredit any other viable option).... You can't, because there is no such thing. It's not LEO's presence that makes/breaks a law, it's the threat and fear. LEO has only to catch a handful of lawbreakers to make a law 'enforceable'. The fear of getting caught is usually enough for everybody else. So, to answer your fears, yes. It is completely enforceable. But nice try.

I completely disagree with your assertion that my argument is weak or terrible. Laws need to be created in a way that an LEO can prove you broke it, not only to you but also to a judge/court. A LEO can’t tell a judge that he found a gut pile and since this person had been hunting in the area he assumed it was his, and wrote him a ticket. Most laws are easily enforceable as they have set “line” that is defined when crossed, like a speed limit… Or a sportsmen example, go duck hunting with lead shells in your vest, ticket. The officer does not need to see you shooting at birds or have killed a bird to write you up, simple law that is easily enforceable. Making lead rifle rounds illegal would go by the same idea, go hunting with any on you and ticket. With clear, defined laws it is easy for a prosecutor or LEO to make case. You assumption that people left to their own devices will do what is ethical and right is awesome… If everyone was as you say we wouldn’t need laws to begin with.

As for your lame “take any law” business, go play on a school jungle gym with a visible firearm and let me know how many times you make it down the slide before your chewing tanbark (or whatever ecofriendly tanbark substitute they are probably using now).

nvthis
10-22-2013, 10:59 PM
Soooo... LEO doesn't need to see you speed before writing you a ticket? Wha?? And passing a law about lead bullets assures 100% compliance with NO leg work from LEO because it has a "set line"???? Err.. Wait.. The world is doing what is ethical and promises never to shoot condors in the back with lead bullets because the liberals in Cali pissed off some grower rednecks who think that no more condors = no more need for stupid laws, right?... Hmmm.. That's really weird man. I have never had anyone go so far out of their way to make MY point before. Nice work. Your argument went from weak to totally bizarre. lol, I'm going to bed.. And dude, what the hell with the tan bark and the jungle gym??? Was there some kind of actual relevant point to that? I mean, did the visible firearm at least have lead bullets??? WTF? :smiley_crazy: