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fat fish
02-02-2014, 10:36 PM
I'm going to try Folsom tomorrow if all goes as planned...I usually go with no weight but do any of you use weight...I have mostly floating j7's and a few j9's and a few of the same size jointed rebels...how long of a leader also? Thank you guys for any advice.

NaughtyFlashLures
02-03-2014, 07:11 AM
I havent trolled folsom much, but generally this time of year you wont need weight. If you are toplining them you should be able to work the top 10 feet of water by changing the length of your setback. I dont run a leader on rapalas, I tie directly to the lure with a loop, then stagger my setbacks from 80 - 120 feet. Use a limber rod and start off with a speed that is just fast enough to get the lure to work the way you like. Ive had good luck this year on raps between 1.7 - 2.2 on the GPS, depending on the lake of course.

K-15
02-03-2014, 08:20 AM
Good points above,..once a lure reachs it's max depth, it's not going to get any deeper without help, I've run a swivel about 5' above the lure, loop knot at lure,..you can either slide on a 1/4-3/8 oz. worm weight on the main, or use a rubber core sinker, to buy some depth. When top lining, I've put out as much as 200'+ set back,..and do the zig and zag, get's the lures by fish that hadn't spooked from the boat. Old rule of thumb for me, as the sun gets higher, the lures go deeper, reverse in the evening.Try to have a system to calculate how much line your letting out, when you hit a fish,it gives you point to go back to.You probably know most of this stuff, just a few pointers. Good luck! Mike

Line Stretcher
02-03-2014, 08:48 AM
Here's a quick little trick. Attach 15' of 15lb lead core to your main line then 15' of FC leader and attach your rap to your leader with a Surgeons loop knot.

With this method, you just change the boat speed to raise or lower the lure. The method seems to be most effective for me in the winter and early spring.

XPL051v3
02-03-2014, 10:25 AM
Good points above,..once a lure reachs it's max depth, it's not going to get any deeper without help, I've run a swivel about 5' above the lure, loop knot at lure,..you can either slide on a 1/4-3/8 oz. worm weight on the main, or use a rubber core sinker, to buy some depth. When top lining, I've put out as much as 200'+ set back,..and do the zig and zag, get's the lures by fish that hadn't spooked from the boat. Old rule of thumb for me, as the sun gets higher, the lures go deeper, reverse in the evening.Try to have a system to calculate how much line your letting out, when you hit a fish,it gives you point to go back to.You probably know most of this stuff, just a few pointers. Good luck! Mike

I hear a lot of guys doing 200ft setbacks. Although it seems like a lot I have never done that much. I usually go 100ft but it all depends on the lake and how the fish are biting. I went last week to collins and trolled raps. Hit a fish and before reeling it in I had another one on. I ended up going back through the spot for 1 more take down and nothing else. I'm sure there was a school of fish there but without a fish finder I didn't really know. I like to troll around 2mph with the fire tiger rapalas. I put out 2 - 3 colors of leader core line. Good luck


-Xzi

Line Stretcher
02-03-2014, 11:13 AM
I set my setback depending on how I want the lure to present itself. If I run mono and a floating rap I like to go back around 125' or until the line snakes behind the boat in turns. If I'm scoping fish under the boat and I expect to target those fish I don't want the lure going where the fish aren't.

If I'm running FC then I'll go to about 80' because it doesn't follow the boat well in turns. The short setback will help to keep it where I want it.

Lead core tends to follow really well because of the resistance but only if you run the right length of leader and keep your speed down. I never run a leader longer than twice the length of the rod I'm using.

As a side note, lead cores effectiveness for depth control pretty much disappears at anything above 1.75mph. If you're using it at speeds above that then I recommend the trick I previously posted.

Please note that these are just tips from my personal experience. Your results may and probably will vary. Just play around with the variables and you should find what works best for you and put's fish in the boat.

Koke Machine83
02-03-2014, 04:22 PM
The Loop Knot on your Rapala, will break after a few fish!!! The line rubs back and forth on the metal eye on the lure... I have had great success using a small dual loc snap. It also makes for easy changes, and dosen't effect the lure!!! I have run my F-9's as fast as 2.7 GPS and caught fish... My usual speed is 2.0 to 2.2 GPS... Dark Colors in the first light, then change over to Bright colors as the day goes on... This is for Sunny Days... Hope this helps...

Robbie (Koke Machine)...

Jfitalia
02-03-2014, 04:57 PM
The Loop Knot on your Rapala, will break after a few fish!!! The line rubs back and forth on the metal eye on the lure... I have had great success using a small dual loc snap. It also makes for easy changes, and dosen't effect the lure!!! I have run my F-9's as fast as 2.7 GPS and caught fish... My usual speed is 2.0 to 2.2 GPS... Dark Colors in the first light, then change over to Bright colors as the day goes on... This is for Sunny Days... Hope this helps...

Robbie (Koke Machine)...


I personally do whatever this man tells me to do. It hasn't failed me yet! :smiley:

Line Stretcher
02-03-2014, 05:01 PM
The Loop Knot on your Rapala, will break after a few fish!!! The line rubs back and forth on the metal eye on the lure... I have had great success using a small dual loc snap. It also makes for easy changes, and dosen't effect the lure!!! I have run my F-9's as fast as 2.7 GPS and caught fish... My usual speed is 2.0 to 2.2 GPS... Dark Colors in the first light, then change over to Bright colors as the day goes on... This is for Sunny Days... Hope this helps...

Robbie (Koke Machine)...

I personally have never had that problem Robbie but I can see how it could occur. I remove the split rings if they have them and that might be what makes the difference, I don't know for sure.

What I do like about the Surgeons loop is that you can adjust the size of the loop to change the action. Make it tight and it will have very little action which may be good if you want to troll them slow. If you make it bigger it seems to give the lure better action and for me it seems to provoke a more frequent reaction strike if I'm trolling fast while on the hunt.

The X-Raps and my all time favorite the Owner Cultiva SP both have bearings inside to produce a rattle. The more action you get the louder the rattle and if that's what the fish are keying on that day, I think I do better.

The big disadvantage to the Surgeons loop is tying if you are using leader material. There's a lot of wasted leader and you can end up changing out your leader when it gets too short. When I know I'm going to be switching lures often then I'll use a duo lock also.

Jfitalia
02-03-2014, 05:13 PM
I have never had problems with dual loc when running raps or spoons. When I am using 8lb test and going almost 3mph I don't like or trust the loop. It rubs and when a big fish hits I don't trust it. Trying to adjust the size of the loop to dictate a lures action? While I don't doubt it works, to me just seems like a way to make a knot more importnant than it needs to be. I am sure clients love it though when you adjust the knot and tell them why. It probably blows their mind when it works! haha.

I catch plenty on the dua lock and I can swap out in seconds!

Line Stretcher
02-03-2014, 05:45 PM
I'm not a great fisherman but I was good enough to make a pretty good income from it for many years.

Some of my clients were great fisherman and I often learned as much from them as they learned from me.

I don't think I said that my method was the only solution or that it was the best. My intention was to open up another option for people to try. I didn't invent the surgeons loop or write any of the numerous articles and books that recommend it's use.

If you don't like it, that's fine, don't use it.

fat fish
02-03-2014, 06:00 PM
You guys are too cool...I learn so much from the boards every day...thank u so much...my buddy w 4wd cancelled on me today so no Folsom fun...oh well

Jfitalia
02-03-2014, 06:20 PM
I'm not a great fisherman but I was good enough to make a pretty good income from it for many years.

Some of my clients were great fisherman and I often learned as much from them as they learned from me.

I don't think I said that my method was the only solution or that it was the best. My intention was to open up another option for people to try. I didn't invent the surgeons loop or write any of the numerous articles and books that recommend it's use.

If you don't like it, that's fine, don't use it.

Oh I'm not knocking your method. I know it works I'm just way to lazy to do it. Do you have to adjust the knot after a fish? I heard the cultiva minnows can be hard to tune?

Have you tried the lucky craft sp series? I have some buddies using them with good success.

Line Stretcher
02-03-2014, 07:03 PM
Oh I'm not knocking your method. I know it works I'm just way to lazy to do it. Do you have to adjust the knot after a fish? I heard the cultiva minnows can be hard to tune?

Have you tried the lucky craft sp series? I have some buddies using them with good success.

The knot doesn't slip from my experience. I use a single with lures because it's hard to do the double. I use a double with things like flies. Knot strength is about 80 pct on flouro which surprised me.

I've never bothered to tune the rippin minnows. They seem to run good right out of the box. I haven't tried the lucky's. I may have some though, they sent me a box of stuff a while back. I'll have to open it and see what's in it.

I think the tuning problem might be the treble hooks. I change mine out with #6 single siwash and take off the split rings so the hooks run in line with the body.

Jfitalia
02-03-2014, 08:28 PM
The knot doesn't slip from my experience. I use a single with lures because it's hard to do the double. I use a double with things like flies. Knot strength is about 80 pct on flouro which surprised me.

I've never bothered to tune the rippin minnows. They seem to run good right out of the box. I haven't tried the lucky's. I may have some though, they sent me a box of stuff a while back. I'll have to open it and see what's in it.

I think the tuning problem might be the treble hooks. I change mine out with #6 single siwash and take off the split rings so the hooks run in line with the body.


I've heard of some using the split with the siwash only on the back hook. They came it helps with short strikes. Any truth to it? I would think it would throw off the action a bit.

Koke Machine83
02-03-2014, 09:21 PM
I guess the Rainbows at Camanche will test out your loop knot, i know, i have had them break in the past!!! Now, No Worries!!! Dual Loc Snap, No more Problems... Easy to change out to the next color of Rapala!!!

FresnoJack
02-04-2014, 11:59 AM
Excellent advice.

I would think that the added vibration with higher speed trolling would only increase the wear on the loop knot.

I haven't had the chance to do much trolling over the past few years, but I used a dual lock snap (a plain snap without a swivel) as well.

The rap is the that a snap changes the action of the lure. I never really saw much, if any, change. If there was one, the fish didn't seem to mind.

If you just want to go with a knot, you can retie after every strike whether or not you have it on long enough to fight or land.

My experience is that there is always some damage to the line after fighting a fish. I always check the line above the knot or snap for wear or abrasion. I gently pull the line on my lips. Lips are very sensitive and make it easy to detect any problems with the line.


The Loop Knot on your Rapala, will break after a few fish!!! The line rubs back and forth on the metal eye on the lure... I have had great success using a small dual loc snap. It also makes for easy changes, and dosen't effect the lure!!! I have run my F-9's as fast as 2.7 GPS and caught fish... My usual speed is 2.0 to 2.2 GPS... Dark Colors in the first light, then change over to Bright colors as the day goes on... This is for Sunny Days... Hope this helps...

Robbie (Koke Machine)...

Line Stretcher
02-04-2014, 12:58 PM
I've heard of some using the split with the siwash only on the back hook. They came it helps with short strikes. Any truth to it? I would think it would throw off the action a bit.

Some feel that one hook hanging straight down and the other to one side increases the hookup rate. I run mine so they both hang straight down with the tips of the hooks facing forward. I don't think I've ever missed a hookup with the singles. I have definitely lost fish during the fight when I leave the trebles on and I have never lost one with the singles.

The fish I have caught with these often bump them a couple of times before they slam them. Perhaps this is what they are referring to as missed hookups. I taught NGT how to fish these at Lake Sonoma. I alerted him to the bump and told him to watch the rod tip, wait and be patient. He did, the fish slammed it and he put a nice steelhead in the boat. In fact he put two in on the same lure and knot.

If I remember correctly, that fish also hit so hard it opened up the eye on the hook and it fell off in the net. The surgeons loop didn't seem to suffer any damage and he did catch a second fish on that same rig. I don't doubt that a surgeons loop can become worn so I'll be watching them much closer now.