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View Full Version : Fly fishers worry over river rehab



hotdog
12-13-2009, 03:09 AM
http://www.appeal-democrat.com/news/river-89629-yuba-access.html

What goes around comes around. Many fly fishermen are so proud of themselves for getting power boats thrown off of the Yuba above Diguerra Point Dam and now they're worried about losing their access, or at least having to pay for access.

If it were up to me, we'd install a ramp at the base of Englebright Dam to allow access to all anglers, and we'd place several sticks of dynamite along the base of Diguerra Point Dam and blow that antiquated fish-killing diversion dam into smithereens. We could also build a take-out ramp at the Simpson Lane Bridge in Marysville. All of these little special interest groups that claim the Yuba are all too happy to lock everyone else out and it makes me sick.

The Yuba is to be seen like this, in pretty pictures, but don't you dare ask for access to fish in it.
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7435/upperyuba80109001600x45.jpg (http://img213.imageshack.us/i/upperyuba80109001600x45.jpg/)

mike_l
12-13-2009, 05:20 AM
While you're at it, why not blow up Englebright too?

I don't know the history re power boats, etc that you refer to. I do know that fly fishers on Putah Creek just got the regs changed there to protect a fragile little stream. I know there's a group who spearheaded the reclamation efforts on the lower Kings and others are working to protect fisheries all over our state. The Trinity was DEAD 30 years ago and people fought for that river too.

If whatever is going on at the Yuba protects and improves the fishery, then I'm in favor of it.

CRABBY
12-13-2009, 06:38 AM
HD,while I agree with free access for sportsman,There is no need to bash flyguys,granted some of them are jerks,just as some other types of fisherpeople,But in sticking together we can do more to improve our fishing in our rivers an lakes,plus if you blow up EB we will just get more lice on BB an Collins,not good.want to help, do a little research on all the groups involved in protecting our fisheries,you may not agree with everybodys agenda but by sticking together is the only way we will win,one thing will lead to another an one day you may,(no guarrantee) thank the flyguys.JMO Don

hotdog
12-13-2009, 09:12 AM
While you're at it, why not blow up Englebright too?

No argument here. Englebright has very little power generating capability and provides 0 flood protection so it should be taken out to allow salmon access to more of their historical spawning areas.


one day you may,(no guarrantee) thank the flyguys.

I will commend the number of flyguys who are willing to show up at a meeting to voice their opinion on behalf of the fisheries. The problem is, many of them consider themselves to be "fly fishermen" instead of just "fishermen". So, rather than working together to enhance our fisheries, they spend time working to outlaw the use of bait and boats because people who use those items aren't "true" fishermen like they are. What about the kids and older folks who can't boulder-hop along the river? I guess they should just leave the Yuba to the "experts".

If the roles were reversed, the average non fly fisherman would never consider outlawing fly fishing for shad or stripers because that would be stupid.

Sardine
12-13-2009, 10:03 AM
I'd like to know how anyone thinks anything is going to get any better as time goes on? Increased population equals more demand on the water system. So, how do you think that is going to get any better? We already have rivers flowing backwards. According to my indian ancestors that signals the end of time. I don't have any kids that I know of so I did my part. :D as far as I know.

mike_l
12-13-2009, 10:30 AM
many of them consider themselves to be "fly fishermen" instead of just "fishermen". So, rather than working together to enhance our fisheries, they spend time working to outlaw the use of bait and boats because people who use those items aren't "true" fishermen like they are.*

I'm sure you are correct, Hot Dog

CRABBY
12-13-2009, 11:45 AM
HD,very true,that in its self is a big problem,somehow we all must get united,probley won't happen,BUT we can hope,an for all you boulder hoppers,there are many of us who can't anymore so be nice. Don

MontanaN8V
12-19-2009, 04:29 AM
I used to own a Sage rod, and a G Loomis fly rod. Gave them away. I fish a Flueger, and a love it. They look down on me on the river when they see my "cowboy" set up, but, I usually catch a few more fish than them. Don't get me wrong, the other rods were great, just my Flueger was the feel and the rod for me. I fish every style there is and do not consider myself anything but a fisherman. I wish that philosophy would spread. :-[

CRABBY
12-19-2009, 08:37 AM
Montana,thought I saw on a post you were gittin chopped up (surgery) what happened,you'r still here? ;D ;D Pain in the back Don ;D

hotdog
12-19-2009, 10:01 AM
I know this came across as bashing all fly fishermen but my intention is to only bash elitists fishermen. When one group of fishermen works together with a government body to ban other fishing techniques than the one's they prefer, that makes me angry to say the least.
I am one of the guys who grew up locally and has been up the Yuba in a power boat. So when I sat in a meeting with the Yuba Co. Water Agency trying to address fishing issues on the Yuba and a fly fishing guy expresses his glee for having worked with the YCWA in getting bait & boats thrown off the river, I was ready to give up on the whole $#@$ river. This has been my therapy... and I do still care about fixing the Yuba.

CRABBY
12-19-2009, 12:33 PM
HD,we know you are a good guy,and we understood your post,if a few fly guys didn't get it the hell with em,thats the same thing I will say to any so called fisherperson who thinks there way is the only way,wether trolling,bait,bank,boat or whatever,we fish,we should stick together an maybe we can make a difference,of course this is JMHO. Don

bclemens81
12-19-2009, 01:25 PM
this is not a bashing to anyone, just my honest opinion being on both sides of the fishing world. growing up as a gearhead in upstate new york, doing some salmon and steelhead fishing out here, then switching over to flyfishing. i do pull the gear out for bass and stripers but the fly rod is never to far away.

here is my 2 cents.

boats can kill fish, as well as eggs in the gravel. as for bait, the fish have a better chance of ingulf a worm or power bait which inturn could possibly kill the fish. and well dont forget about the garbage. i pick up more worm containers, power bait jars, hook packages, beer and soda cans near the jars and containers, and dont forget about the chips and subway bags too. i am not a pin pointer, but some people just dont care about the rivers they fish, they are only out for the meat or the eggs of a fish. cant tell u how many times i see a guy hook a salmon (legal or illegal) reel her in cut open the belly take the roe and push her back into the water. do u have any idea how illegal that is. ofcourse id say something, and there comment "THEY ARE GOING TO DIE ANYWAYS" thats just not right. all we are trying to do is protect something worth protecting. whether is the yuba, putah, american, trinity even lake tahoe. the yuba is very special because its the only river that doesnt have a hatchery on it. so the yuba salmon, trout and steelhead or native only to the yuba. if they parish there will be no yuba salmon, trout or steelhead.

just my 2 cents

hotdog
12-20-2009, 02:53 AM
boats can kill fish, as well as eggs in the gravel

Where's your evidence? I've never heard anyone make the claim that floating on top of the water kills the eggs in the gravel. Walking on the eggs, like fly guys do, is another story.


as for bait, the fish have a better chance of ingulf a worm or power bait which inturn could possibly kill the fish

If you're so concerned about damaging a fish, hang up your gear and join the Sierra Club. The only way to guarantee that no fish gets hurt is to END ALL FISHING ON THE YUBA. That's not what you want though, you just want to have it all for guys like yourself. Do you really think other fishermen are so easily B.S.'d into believing that you care more about the fish than the rest of us? Let's face it, you're just annoyed by other fishermen.

Whenever you're dealing with people, there are always going to be a % of them who are knuckle-heads. You see it on the river, on the road, on the jobsite, at family get togethers, etc., etc. If I see garbage when I'm fishing, I pick it up. If I see someone littering, I call them on it in hopes of shaming them so they see how stupid & inconsiderate they're being. If you can't handle dealing with other people, you're living in the wrong state.

bclemens81
12-20-2009, 04:23 AM
wow mr HOTDOG. u just dont get it do you. u sit here and say u are all about saving a river, but when someone comes out and tells you some reasons y there is no boats or bait, u go off. thats awesome. u may be older and have more fish time, but just because someone is 28 doesnt mean they dont know what they are talking about, i have been to many places and seen many many things, that most 40 yr olds have and will never seen, and most of this came by the time i was 23. u never know i could have 24 yrs of fishing experience, age now a days doesnt mean a thing.

i love seeing gear guys on the water, the ones i hate are the liners and snaggers. those guys make me mad. how they work a bobber in a river amazes me, no mending, just a big long dead drift, its awesome. i never once said get them of the river, we are all fisherman, thats what we do fish. but i have caught many fish on rivers with line coming out of their mouth. i have yet to have a trout or steelhead or salmon swallow a fly, now bait is another story, i have had it happen and so has every other bait guy. so yes i think bait taken off the yuba was a great idea. boats is another story, i think no props would have been a better idea, but boats no. but here is something else, if they allowed boats, just think of how many people would be on the yuba if they allowed powered boats. it would be annoying. yes people trampling the redds is a big problem, on the yuba, the american, pretty much any river system, not just fly guys but gear heads to they all do it, and people sittin next to them and lining fish on the redds. thats just wrong right. but wait its ok to take a bass, blue gill or crappy off their redd right. i call that bs. its the same thing. there is an ethical way and an unethical way to fish the spawn and redds. anyways whether gear heads or fly guys fish on or around redds, i educate them both, but what i have found is that gear guys will go off on you (very defensive, dont know y if they are fishing legally) and fly guys will not and they are all about learning about the river to protect it. i dont take sides, cuz i come from the gear still have gear but mostly fish fly now. back to the boats...as for as boats go, props with kill fish, if a boat hits a fish it could kill it, as far as jets they suck up water and push it out, if they are shallow enough they could hurt a redd, and the more boats on the water the more pollutants that can get into the water.

again my 2 cents...... now go ahead my hotdog, find some reason to twist my words around like others that u have done on this thread. its funny u say hang up my gear and join the sierra club, and all i want is the river to guys like myself, and whom might that be. annoyed by other fisherman huh, do u know how many times i have helped out gearheads on the river that are fishing 15 ft from me. i am wacking fish, and they ask what i am doing, i dont tell them i am fly fishing, i show them my set up, i just rerig their set up with flys and they have a blast. funny thing is i still fish with some of those gear guys and they still use flys to this day. the majority of the fly guys are here to protect the fisheries and hoping that we (all fisherman) all have fisheries to fish in the yrs to come.

the one thing i will agree upon, is we all need to band together as FISHERMAN, and hotdog u need to be on the right side, the fisherman side, not the gear side.

mike_l
12-20-2009, 05:56 AM
I posted early on in the thread, and then HD and I traded very cordial PMs and I believe we at least respected each other's opinions.

Well, there's really a lot more to this than fly fishermen wanting to ban everyone else because they don't care to share water with gear guys. I think the nature of the water and fish that live there should drive the decisions about special regulations.

In waters that are not stocked and contain native or wild fish, I believe special regulations are called for. That could be a restricted take limit, or no take at all for all or part of the year. It may mean closing the water part of the year to protect spawning fish.

In my opinion, such waters should be closed to bait fishing because of the impact on mortality rates of hooked fish. That is not to say that fly fishers don't inadvertantly kill fish that they release, because they certainly do....BUT, the survival rates for fish that are hooked in the mouth with flies/lures is much higher than for those caught with bait. I believe that.

In waters that are stocked, what I call "put and take" fisheries, it's completely different...and responsible bait fishing makes perfect sense. I don't think bait guys should chuck fish back in the water that are going to die anyway. The regs (my opinion) should state that if you're fishing bait and you catch a fish you must keep it and when you have your limit you're done for the day.

I fish the special regs part of the Kings in winter and often share water with gear guys. I find them to be good fishermen, gentlemen on the water and we generally help each other land fish and have a good time. They're using kastmasters with pinched barbs and I'm using flies and who cares? In fact there's a guy I run into occasionally and we trade off fishing runs, just to see who can get a fish to bite...a little friendly competition...

There's something like 38.5 MILLION people in this state now and if we don't find a way to treat different waters differently, then my grandchildren (yet unborn) will have no opportunity to fish the way you and I can today.

It's just not about fly vs everybody else. It's about making sure there are fishable waters and wild/native fish in the future. Common sense and science need to combine and based on that we should all be working together to protect waters that need and deserve it AND providing for fishing opportunities for fly, gear and bait guys.

Cal_Kellogg
12-20-2009, 06:09 AM
Hey Guys.....COOL OFF! You are having a spirited discussion and that's fine....Keep it friendly and watch the language...There are all sorts of folks on these boards, old guys, young guys, women and kids....I'm certain that all your thoughts can be expressed without profanity...If not don't post...I'm leaving this discussion up, but I'm watching it...No cussing or personal attacks....Don't make me play baby sitter, I don't want to pull it down....

Thanks Cal

CRABBY
12-20-2009, 09:31 AM
Weird,reading all the posts an not being mad at anybody or any type of fisherperson looks like you are all in one way or another in agreement,just a few differences,liked Mike I's post seemed the most calm an non biased,not takin sides you all have good points,this is politics just in a diff.way an no one can be right 100% of the time,united we stand,divided we fall,in the fishing world we must stick together,our viewpoints may differ somewhat but the bottom line is if we can't get along,do a little give an take,we are done for,so far I have seen notthing unreasonable posted here an yet a lack of communication has created some hostility,read the posts carefully an you'll see an understand it better.I know!I have misread some an made some stupid replies myself.* Don

addicted2Daiwa
12-20-2009, 11:51 AM
boats can kill fish
That is total BS! >:( I've owned a boat for 9 years now and I've never heard of such accusation! I've been through 12 states fishing and yes, I treasure my boat as much as my fiance because when I'm on her (the boat of course...) it's the only time I can have peace without someone giving me a headache. I've fished lakes, rivers, and even huge ponds in midwestern/deep south of the United States and never once had anybody spit that nonsense. I've fished at the base of Englebright a couple of times before but haven't been there for bout two years now because of the type of job I'm in but boat killing fish is certain BS >:(

the fish have a better chance of ingulf a worm or power bait which inturn could possibly kill the fish.
I've caught fish with hooks still engulf in them especially steelhead who inhaled roe, that still took a shot at my pink worm! In my opinion, I think the flyguys just don't like competition with the gear guys because there's way more things gear guys can have that will spank flyguys on the water. :o This is just like what happened when I fished Putah Creek. Arrogant accusations without proof and evidence from the so call "noble" fishing >:(

hotdog
12-20-2009, 12:14 PM
Hey Guys.....COOL OFF!

Sorry Cal, I knew this would be a controversial thread and I do want to keep this as a discussion among avid anglers instead of a pee pee contest. I honestly do not have anything against fly fishermen and friends of mine who fly fish for stripers say it's a blast. I'm all for using whatever (legal) techniques that catch fish, and I'm not against barbless hook restrictions. I hope I've made the point that my fellow anglers need to think long and hard before running to some government agency to get other anglers thrown off the water. Fishermen should be working together in trying to force our government into making good decisions for the fisheries. The tribe mentality just weakens our effectiveness as a group and that's what the gov. agencies are hoping for.

bclemens81
12-21-2009, 03:18 AM
addicted2daiwa i love friendly compatition on the water. i never said i dont like gear guys or anything like that. yes there are fly guys out there that hate gear guys, but i am not one of them.

if u are up for it lets see how good u really are. i would be up for a friendly compatition your gear against my fly. whether the yuba, american, putah, truckee, little truckee. if u are game so am i. maybe we can squash this crap once and for all.

addicted2Daiwa
12-21-2009, 08:22 AM
I love friendly competition too but I do not like others looking down on my gears because other anglers ruined it's reputation. Especially when people criticize about using beads for steelhead fishing. I fish the American three times per river opening in January, the Yuba at least once a year or twice if my job permits. :P I will be out there in January on the American and I can assure you my fish are caught in the mouth with "barbless" hooks just like what the regulations says despite many other anglers not giving a care in the world. :( I don't know exactly when I'll be out there because the nature of my work don't involve schedules but when it permits, I'll be out there.

bclemens81
12-21-2009, 10:17 AM
i am in the same boat, i use beads or glo bugs and always in the mouth and i use barbless all the time even though u dont need it in some areas.

Cal_Kellogg
12-21-2009, 12:21 PM
Hey Guys,

Thanks for your cooperation! If everyone displays behavior like this we'll never have to lock or zap a thread, which is what I want to work toward!...Cal

hotdog
12-21-2009, 12:59 PM
the yuba is very special because its the only river that doesnt have a hatchery on it. so the yuba salmon, trout and steelhead or native only to the yuba.

OK, now that things have simmered down, I wanted to talk about this (in a very considerate fashion).
The hatchery salmon and river spawned salmon on the Feather are the same genetically due to generations of inbreeding. I wonder if the Yuba salmon are also the same as the Feather fish? My reasoning is, I don't believe that salmon will all commit suicide and go up the Feather when the Feather is 80* and vice versa so I'd bet that there is a hatchery influence on the Yuba. The same rational holds for the steelhead. I hate to burst your bubble about the trout but they are also hatchery fish. Those fish come out of Dry Creek which comes out of Collins Lake. Some fish also come downriver from Bullards and Englebright but most are the result of Collin's aggressive planting schedule, and God bless them for it.
I have irrigation water that comes from Collins and I've actually rescued fish from my ditch while watering my pasture. I can guarantee you that every pond in my area was stocked (for free) from Collins.

If anyone from the DFG could answer the question regarding genetics, that would be appreciated.

bclemens81
12-22-2009, 08:29 AM
there is a huge study going on the yuba right now inregards to the trout and steelhead. mainly steelhead. that are puttin tracking devises in them and have noticed that a large portion of steelhead that start in the yuba never really leave it. many either go to the ocean once and never go back to the ocean ever again, or just go as far as rio linda then turn back around. and thats because of the abundance of food on the yuba.

yes there is hatchery influence on the yuba. how much dont know. over the past 4 yrs of fly fishing the yuba every yr i have hooked and landed 1 hatchery feather river steelhead. as far as salmon dont know. i do know this, the majority of the fish that spawn on the yuba are native to the yuba (no hatchery). if a hatchery fish spawns on the yuba, god bless it, i would much rather see a hatchery steelhead or salmon spawn naturally in gravel, rather than the steps they take at a hatchery. nothing against the hatcherys i just feel that the offspring may be of hatchery decent, but it will be more wild if it survives than one that is just planted out in the ocean to return. and i hope that it makes it back to the river to spawn again. again its of hatchery decent but its had to survive, and well it was born in the river which makes it a wild fish. my point is that the yuba is a special river being that its the only one in the state that doesnt have a hatchery on it. so that means those fish in the yuba are even more special, its a self populating river point blank. nothing has added that river to be the river that it its. nature has taken its course and done very well.

hotdog
12-22-2009, 09:45 AM
Going off topic...
I don't want to go the hatchery route on the Yuba but I do want egg boxes installed in the river to aid in its recovery. Fish First has a lot of good anecdotal evidence regarding the success of using them up North.
I know that some restoration work has been going on for about 10 years on the Yuba but I haven't heard anything in regards to restoring the redds which is the most critical element. I think they're hoping that little 'ol Deer Creek will provide enough material to sustain the redds which I think is a joke. They (NOAA) are also hoping for some regeneration from gravel washing into the river from its banks, and I think this is also hooey. The Yuba doesn't hit flood stage often enough for either of these plans to work. On the bright side, the goldfields are close so they have an endless supply of gravel for the redds once they figure out where to put it. If I had my way, they'd add material every 100 yds. from Englebright down to Diguerra.

bclemens81
12-22-2009, 01:59 PM
the gravel in the yuba is the most perfect gravel for these guys to spawn in, grade A, wish more rivers had it, yes they need more though, but the farther u go up the more spawning gravel there is. adding gravel would be nice, but thats just going to bring more people to fish the redds. every year i see more and more a-hols fish the redds on purpose snaggin salmon left and right. i hardly snag a salmon when i am fish near a redd, if its snagged i break it off, if its in the mouth, i have a nice fight. there is an ethical way and unethical way when fishing the spawning season, lets not bring that up though. it will start a war. there is definitely enough spawning gravel on the river from englebright down to the feather. what they need to do is just blow up englebright, it does nothing, and will not stop a full on flood, its ugly, and well it will give the fishies a better chance in spawning. it will open up so much more spawning gravel. seriously englebright was only built for recreational purposes, it doesnt build any power, its worthless, open the thing up, and let us have a great river.

egg boxes would be a good idea. problems though, natural prey (coyotes, bears yes bears, i see bear skat all the time up there, cougars and other animals) dont forget about people, there will be stupid people out there that will trash these things for fun or to take the roe. it will be costly so who will pay for it. i think first things first, more gravel, adding material every 100 yrds will be tough, there are key locations where gravel should me placed and replaced, and well every 100 yrds will leave us fisherman no place to fish. lol.

bxiong334
01-23-2010, 12:55 PM
Ummmm, Hello.

I have read every post in this thread, and I strongly believe the Yuba should not allow power boats. Have you ever fished at a lake on the shore, and a boat flies on by, creating waves coming at you? In my opinion, that is the most annoying thing ever. I am not trying to heat up some of you anglers who use boats, it is just what I believe in due to my experience fishing.

As for the situation on the "elite" fly guys, those dudes are jerks. I am a fly guy, but I started on spin gear. The Yuba should allow everyone to fish there, as long as regulations are being followed.

As for the Redds, it is not difficult to identify redds when wading. Educating yourself on what 'Redds' are can greatly help the environment and making it a better place.

In conclusion, the solution to all of this, is just to educate ourselves and each other, so that we can understand each other better. It's not like we speak different languages, and have a language barrier. EDUCATION PEEPS!

hotdog
01-23-2010, 04:02 PM
I have read every post in this thread, and I strongly believe the Yuba should not allow power boats.

Welcome to the boards.
Watch out for those boat waves.