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View Full Version : Changing Out Hooks On Lures....WHY



FisherForLife
12-01-2008, 08:46 PM
What's with all these hook change-outs on all lures all the time. If you set your drag right, and you don't force the fish in, but let it run when needed, you should never need to change your hooks. I have rapalas that are 10 years old and that i've caught hundreds if not thousands of fish on, and the hooks look brand new and are as strong as ever. I think the problem is with people getting 20 pound braid for 3 pound trout and then setting their drag all the way tight and just reeling the fish in. OBVIOUSLY the hooks will bend. Something's gotta give. And what's with using 30, 50, 80 pound braid for bass fishing? I understand the use of braid for cutting through weeds, and deep cover fishing where you need strong line, but why always use it for other situations? I use 8lb line MAX for bass. 4lb MAX for trout. You don't need anything higher. I think what people need to do is to learn to fish. It doesn't take a genius to reel in a fish with 80 pound line. Last couple years of salmon fishing, i used 8lb line for river fishing. My biggest salmon up to date was 42 pounds. ON 8LB LINE! Only took about 5 minutes too. Learn to fight the fish, to enjoy the drag screaming, to reel the fish in and letting it run when needed. I'm sick of going fishing, and watching people use 8 foot heavy power rods with 50 pound mono line for trout and bluegill. Do you not see something wrong here? Where's the sport? Where's the fun? The truth is, companies like rapala, rebel, yo-zuri, lucky craft, and all other companies like these make GREAT hooks. They make hooks that fit the lure and the target species. Do you ever see the rapala professionals changing out their hooks? I don't think so. Every other post on here talks about hook change-outs, and it's useless. Obviously, there's times that you should change them out. For example, on lure companies that use cheap hooks, although you shouldn't even buy those lures cus they won't work anywhere near as well as say, rapala. Maybe you should switch out the hooks when fishing in underwater tree forests. Special situations like that. But filling rookies minds with the idea that all hooks need to be changed out on ALL lures? Do you guys work for the hook companies or something? Seriously adjust your drags. They're there for a reason. Anyway, i feel better now lol. Every time i read about hook changing-out i always wanna say something. Hope it doesn't piss anyone off lol. Seems like some people only buy lures to change out the hooks.

hooks
12-01-2008, 09:06 PM
What's with all these hook change-outs on all lures all the time. If you set your drag right, and you don't force the fish in, but let it run when needed, you should never need to change your hooks. I have rapalas that are 10 years old and that i've caught hundreds if not thousands of fish on, and the hooks look brand new and are as strong as ever. I think the problem is with people getting 20 pound braid for 3 pound trout and then setting their drag all the way tight and just reeling the fish in. OBVIOUSLY the hooks will bend. Something's gotta give. And what's with using 30, 50, 80 pound braid for bass fishing? I understand the use of braid for cutting through weeds, and deep cover fishing where you need strong line, but why always use it for other situations? I use 8lb line MAX for bass. 4lb MAX for trout. You don't need anything higher. I think what people need to do is to learn to fish. It doesn't take a genius to reel in a fish with 80 pound line. Last couple years of salmon fishing, i used 8lb line for river fishing. My biggest salmon up to date was 42 pounds. ON 8LB LINE! Only took about 5 minutes too. Learn to fight the fish, to enjoy the drag screaming, to reel the fish in and letting it run when needed. I'm sick of going fishing, and watching people use 8 foot heavy power rods with 50 pound mono line for trout and bluegill. Do you not see something wrong here? Where's the sport? Where's the fun? The truth is, companies like rapala, rebel, yo-zuri, lucky craft, and all other companies like these make GREAT hooks. They make hooks that fit the lure and the target species. Do you ever see the rapala professionals changing out their hooks? I don't think so. Every other post on here talks about hook change-outs, and it's useless. Obviously, there's times that you should change them out. For example, on lure companies that use cheap hooks, although you shouldn't even buy those lures cus they won't work anywhere near as well as say, rapala. Maybe you should switch out the hooks when fishing in underwater tree forests. Special situations like that. But filling rookies minds with the idea that all hooks need to be changed out on ALL lures? Do you guys work for the hook companies or something? Seriously adjust your drags. They're there for a reason. Anyway, i feel better now lol. Every time i read about hook changing-out i always wanna say something. Hope it doesn't piss anyone off lol. Seems like some people only buy lures to change out the hooks.


You rang??

I'm testing this right now. I changed the hooks on some of my raps to 2x red. Supposed to get more hits with the red. We'll see. ;)

I had a huge hit Sat. with a orange and gold 13F rap with red hooks. Broke the leader. ;)And no, my drag wasn't too tight!!

metalmouth
12-01-2008, 09:21 PM
I run Rapalas most of the time I'm running sticks. Red hooks have certainly increased my strike ratio over the same lure running side by side with the standard hooks. Gami's hold up better when removing the hooks with pliers as well. Gami's keep a sticky sharp point longer and sharpen up better. I would suppose it depends on what you fish for. Some areas have fish that hit violently and some do not. Ask a Striper fisherman. It's just a shame when someone loses the fish of a lifetime to bad hooks or split rings. That someone won't be me . *. *. *Oh and I use the finest 9' Loomis Light to Med Light Rods (unless ripping) with Shimano Reels with great drags. I'm not gambling a trophy on any faulty gear! *;)

FisherForLife
12-01-2008, 09:59 PM
I've actually been at seminars that showed statistically that red hooks don't improve bite frequency. I used to be a firm believer in red hooks until that fateful day. They gave evidence that i just couldn't argue with lol. As far as drag, the point i'm trying to make is that the stress shouldn't be on the hooks...its supposed to be on the line, and only on the line. That's why knot strength is so important. Hooks should be the least of your problems when pulling in a fish.

metalmouth
12-01-2008, 10:03 PM
The hooks don't bend from fighting the fish. They generally bend when you are trolling 3+ mph in one direction and a large fish hits going at the same speed in the opposite direction! *;)

metalmouth
12-01-2008, 10:06 PM
I guess next you will want me to stop painting flared red gill plates with a sharpie on my sticks as well? :-? ::) :o 8-)

FisherForLife
12-01-2008, 10:37 PM
Lol, hey i didn't mean anything. I think it's worth doing, if only for the confidence part. In fact, i've caught alot more fish on the vampire minnow colored rapala than the regular minnow rapalas. And the only difference is that the vampire one has a red lip. And on the trolling thing, the hooks shouldn't bend if the drag is set to absorb some of the shock. Then, once you pick up the pole, set the hook one more time to be sure, and bring the fish in. Works every time for me lol. Oh, and on the red hook thing, the seminar i went to was a bass fishing seminar. Maybe trout is different? But they showed that out of 100 tests, all 100 showed the same results, and that was that red hooks didn't improve bite percentage. I guess you'd have to have been there. I used to always put red hooks on my lures. Now i just don't bother with it anymore lol. Once again, i'm not telling anyone how to fish or that they're doing something wrong. I'm just saying hooks don't really need to be replaced because of the theory that they're somehow defective lol. I'm just gonna use rapala as an example on this thread for easiness of explanation. Rapala hand tests each lure to make sure it swims perfectly. They test it with the same size and weight hooks that are on the lure, and when you change them out, there's a good chance that you're impairing the action of that lure. Plus, they do tests each and every day on different aspects of the lure...you think they're not smart enough to put in hooks that can stand the test? Believe me the hooks have more than enough strength. They know what they're doing lol. There's a reason the company is so successful.

metalmouth
12-01-2008, 11:36 PM
I agree FFL we all run what we have confidence in. Now I have a question. I know Raps are tuned well but have you noticed that all of the new Rapala Tools have tuning spots built into them. ;D That struck my funny bone for some reason. ;D

Jetspray
12-02-2008, 06:15 AM
The only time I change hooks is if they are broken or regulations require it (single hook, barbless). You would be better off making sure your tackle boxes have moisture removing technologies, a good hook sharpener of some sort, paint and markers for changing presentation, and a few back-up hooks for damage/regs changing. Sometimes you put a lure in the water and see that something has changed, if so fix it.......Jetspray

Woody
12-02-2008, 06:39 AM
Not sure why we are here arguing with a 18 year old kid they know everything ;D ;D If you don't believe that just ask my 3 teen age boys.


Woody

Berryessa Kid
12-02-2008, 07:14 AM
I don't normally switch the hooks unless it's a reg thing. That being said I have switched a few. I always thought that the sharpness and the ability to stay sharp was one of the biggest reasons to switch??? I think the type of fishing your doing may warrant a switch as well. As implied it is hard to beat Gami's. Keep the fire FFL. Great topic. Ah 18, that glorious age when I knew everthing, and shortly before I realized that I actually knew................... :-? ;D ;D
Bass fishing is a whole different story..... Steve.

GCinGV
12-02-2008, 07:45 AM
FisherForLife,
I think I would have agreed with you a year ago but then I spent 6 days trolling Clark Canyon and gained a whole new paradigm about hooks and split rings on Rapalas.
We were using #9 and #11, BB Raps and although we were using braid we had 100ft top shot of 8 or 10 lb mono as a shock leader with a 6 to 8lb leader and about 2 to3 lbs of drag pressure max. As soon as we started seeing the damage to the lures we loosened the drags to the point where they would barely keep from letting out line as we trolled so a tight drag was definitely not the issue.
The damage wasn’t from them pulling so hard as much as it was the initial impact and extremely violent side-to-side head shakes after being hooked. Two things were happening, either they would completely close the barbs of the trebles on the initial impact, which would have nothing to do with the drag, or they would shake their head until the ring or hook straightened out. It wasn’t just the big fish doing it either, one of the smallest fish we caught was a 14” Bow which managed to pull the back half of my plug back over the shank of the rear hook. These fish were just plain crazy. It was only an issue with the scrappy Rainbows, the Browns weren’t a problem. I remember at the time, Frayed-knot, MM and I saying that no one was going to believe us and the first thing they would say is our drags were too tight.
Id have to say those insane Bows at Clark are an exception to the rule but Trout can definitely tare up the stock hooks and rings.
GC

The Reel Deal
12-02-2008, 07:55 AM
I change out hook only if i want to go bigger or smaller. I have had a hood get straitened when getting a hot trolling, i was trolling 3 mph and, drag was set good but it was a a 7 lb trout on an f-5 rapala, luckily the other other hooks on the treble help up, that one must have took the brunt of the hookup.

jiggity49
12-02-2008, 07:59 AM
Generaly I have never had a problem with hooks on my trout lures but I have had hooks bent on my striper plugs and now change them out regularly. Heck I've even had a 2lb bass bend the stock hooks on a super spook. :o Yes I fish braid but I don't horse my fish either. Actually bent hooks in my experience have very little to do with how you fight the fish and more to do with the fish being hooked by multiple hooks at once and how it is hooked. Think of it like this when a big fish hits a lure like a rapala or more likely a large top water plug (like the spook I mentioned) many times they will be hooked in the mouth by one set of trebles and out side the mouth somewhere on the body or head by the other trebles. Now you don't have a rod to absorb the shock between these 2 hooks like you normally would so when the fish twists and turns he will bend the hooks since the lure obviously won't bend. This is why I change the hooks on all my large lures that have multiple trebles. small rapalas and spinners that are less likely to hook a fish both in and out of the mouth at the same time I will leave the hooks as is

Pongo
12-02-2008, 08:02 AM
Red lures and hooks turn black at 15 feet and below so maybe you should buy black hooks.

hellbent
12-02-2008, 08:15 AM
The hooks don't bend from fighting the fish. They generally bend when you are trolling 3+ mph in one direction and a large fish hits going at the same speed in the opposite direction!

Well said- I burned through a handful of Rapalas this weekend, not only the hooks get bent out but the split rings seperate, in fact we had the back end treble hit so hard it pulled the wire out 1/2 way up the body. This is even fishing with free spool, where i just thumb the "drag".

hitdog777
12-02-2008, 09:10 AM
All hooks and terminal tackle aren't created equal. 99% of the time the hooks and rings that come with it are fine. So, for the average fisherman who goes out a couple of times a year catching your average trout then there is no need to change out the hooks. If you accidently run into a trophy and lose it then it's a great fishing story to tell your buddies.

However, for those hardcore who travel to all ends of the earth and fish in the worst conditions in constant search of that trophy fish, it's not worth risking that 1% of the time as you never know when your going to have a trophy on the other end.

Once again, it just comes down to where you are fishing, what you are targeting and what you have confidence in.

SuperDave
12-02-2008, 09:37 AM
A couple of really nice fish I have lost were because of split rings that were essentially straightened out. I have not had good luck replacing them either. When I try to use the split ring pliers on the new ring, the ring never completely closes like it came out of the bag. :-/ The split rings on Rapalas seem really small to me. Should I be replacing with a bigger ring? I've been trying to match size but just buy a stronger ring and getting frustrated.

nevadatrout2
12-02-2008, 09:59 AM
Red lures and hooks turn black at 15 feet and below so maybe you should buy black hooks.
so whats next ulta-violet hooks ?

metalmouth
12-02-2008, 10:16 AM
A couple of really nice fish I have lost were because of split rings that were essentially straightened out. *I have not had good luck replacing them either. *When I try to use the split ring pliers on the new ring, the ring never completely closes like it came out of the bag. * :-/ *The split rings on Rapalas seem really small to me. *Should I be replacing with a bigger ring? *I've been trying to match size but just buy a stronger ring and getting frustrated.
Staminainc.com 2X Strong split rings are the answer. They close back up and it takes a pair of split ring pliers to replace them but it will be the last split ring you have to buy for that lure! ;)

ReelJerks
12-02-2008, 10:24 AM
** In before the move!

Well I don't change hooks, but, I make everything I use so during construction I use either Eagle Claw Laser Sharp, Gamakatsu, or Owner brands. The style of hook is dependant on the type of fish catching device I am engineering. *;)

Edd

cjskier
12-02-2008, 11:03 AM
I sense some bs in the original post. hundreds, if not thousands on one rapala? Are you kidding? Since when can a fragile piece of balsa wood handle that much abuse? It just take one big hit to break the nose ring area. I could not see any rapala lasting over 50 fish, or at least none of any size. I cant count how many raps I have broken on fish, and most of them 2lb bows.

As for the hooks, why would you NOT want the very best hook possible? You never know what you may pull up from the deep. Not only that, I only replace hooks that break. And there has been more then a few of those on some nice browns.

Snowtrout
12-02-2008, 11:08 AM
Not all hooks are created equal. Some companies invest and use quality hooks while others do not. But the changing out the hooks question has three parts to it: strength, sharpness and price. Since the brand Rapala was used, Rapala through out the years has used both quality and inferior hooks. Many times I have had hooks bent in or out because a large fish (not a small planted rainbow trout) with its powerful mouth, chewed up and destroyed the hook. I had my drag set correct and it did not matter if I had mono or braid on, the hooks were simply cheap and bent with any amount of pressure on them. In the past few years, Rapala has since gone with a new hook mfg because of the negative feedback Rapala was getting from their pro staff about the hooks, and those issues of weak hooks have gone away on most but not all of their lures.

Let's look at sharpness. A hook is sharp if when placed on your finger nail with a little pressure, stays on your finger nail. If I took a Rapala hook and did this, it would fall right off because they are not very sharp. Yes I can take a file or stone to them and sharpen each hook point to my likening but to do this takes time and even when I have done this, these hooks become dull once again very easily due to the material(s) used to make the hook.

A quality hook cost quite a bit more money than a stock hook and mfg of lures know this. When you are buying millions of hooks, a company has to think of the bottom line. Do they keep their prices low with inexpensive hooks or charge the consumer more with a superior hook? Most companies think low price is better because most angling consumers really do not pay to much attention to the quality of the hooks. If it is the size and color they want, the consumer buys it. How many anglers will not buy a lure because the hooks are cheap, weak and not sharp? They would buy the lure and replace the stock hooks with quality hooks.

My experience has taught me that if my hooks are not sharp nor strong, there is a good chance I might lose a quality fish and I am not willing to take that risk. Some lures have fine stock hooks and I use them as so but on my large Rapala's and Kastmasters, I always change out the hooks to Gamakatsu EWG's. Are they sharper than stock hooks, yes. Are they stronger than stock hooks, yes. And the biggest question: Do I trust them more than stock hooks, yes.

Oxbow
12-02-2008, 11:36 AM
Red hooks lures, boats, rocks or anything else that is red do not "change" color to black or brown or blue or any other color just because they are dropped into water deeper than 15 feet. The appearance of a lure to the naked eye may change at depth with only sunlight from above as a source of light but that is entirely different than having a lure "change" color. Take a bright light down deep and observe that a red lure is still red when you have plenty of light available and also note that the lure is still red when you bring it back to the surface so no color "change" has taken place.

Do not believe everything you hear at a fishing seminar. There are some very good fishermen/women that are wonderful speakers that fall unceremoniously on their backside when they stop talking fishing and start talking science. I have observed this on more than one occasion so beware.

ReelJerks
12-02-2008, 12:00 PM
Red hooks lures, boats, rocks or anything else that is red do not "change" color to black or brown or blue or any other color just because they are dropped into water deeper than 15 feet. *The appearance of a lure to the naked eye may change at depth with only sunlight from above as a source of light but that is entirely different than having a lure "change" color. *Take a bright light down deep and observe that a red lure is still red when you have plenty of light available and also note that the lure is still red when you bring it back to the surface so no color "change" has taken place.

Do not believe everything you hear at a fishing seminar. *There are some very good fishermen/women that are wonderful speakers that fall unceremoniously on their backside when they stop talking fishing and start talking science. *I have observed this on more than one occasion so beware.

This should probably be in another thread, but, since it's already here....

A 'standard' red lure, bobby pin, dinner plate, or whatever, will ONLY look red if there is RED light hitting it. In or Out of the water. This is science. So, your statement is both true and false, depending on the turbidity of the water, actual depth, whether or not there is cloud cover, and perhaps whether your fish is above or below the lure. This is very simple to prove with a couple of flashlights and a few color filters from the camera shop. I don't think anyone here would say the a lure 'actually' changes it's color. It only changes it's color appearance.

Fluorescent red, however, will remain red even with no red light.

Edd

SuperDave
12-02-2008, 02:12 PM
I'll bring up another lure that is very effective but has a rather cheap hook, Needlefish. The hooks are crudely cast and don't stay sharp very long. If one has a hook sharpener and keeps up on it they perform okay.

Oxbow
12-02-2008, 02:45 PM
Reply #14:
"Red lures and hooks turn black at 15 feet and below ......"

Reply #24:
"I don't think anyone here would say the lure 'actually' changes it's(sic) color."

White light from a common flashlight illuminates "red" things just fine in the dark at my house, don't know about your place.

ReelJerks
12-02-2008, 03:54 PM
Reply #14: *
"Red lures and hooks turn black at 15 feet and below ......"

Reply #24:
"I don't think anyone here would say the lure 'actually' changes it's(sic) color."

White light from a common flashlight illuminates "red" things just fine in the dark at my house, don't know about your place.

Yes it does.....but do you understand why?

This is NOT the thread to discuss this but, if you PM me I'll be happy to suggest some study materials for you. I find the study of color and light fascinating, how it refracts and bends. How to incorporate different colors at various depths to offer great contrast. It may be even more intriguing than the JFK assassination.

Edd

ReelJerks
12-02-2008, 04:00 PM
White light from a common flashlight illuminates "red" things just fine in the dark at my house, don't know about your place.

Yes, but if you filter out the red light from the flashlight, you will have two things;
1-A beam of light that is not white.
2-A red lure that appears to not be red.

Edd

FisherForLife
12-02-2008, 06:27 PM
Mr. Woody, anytime you wanna have a little friendly fishing competition with this 18 year old kid you give me a holler :D

As for the other guy claiming i'm lying about catching so much fish on one lure? Some of us can actually cast and not hit rocks every time. Some of us know how to keep our lures in good shape and how to pull in a fish without breaking off every part of a lure. I know i'm new here, and i'm not trying to piss anyone off....yet ;D i'm just saying, i've never had any problems with hooks on lures, and i've caught some trophies for dam sure. None of what i'm saying concerns trolling, as i'm only starting to do that, but doesn't a fish hitting a lure while you're trolling do the same thing as a fish hitting your lure when you're burning it into shore? I don't think there'd be that much of a difference.

nvtroller
12-02-2008, 07:40 PM
FFL
I have a suggestion - If you are sick of watching people fish in a manner you do not agree with - and with rods and hooks you do not care to use and fishn line you do not like - then simply do not watch them and continue to go and catch those thousands of fish you are catching your way. If you went to a seminar and learned something from a presenter then use that info combined with your 18 years of expertise and go gettum. About hooks you have to remember stats can be manipulated in any way the presenter wants to point those stats. Jees - lighten up it's just fishn. :)
troller

Woody
12-02-2008, 08:13 PM
No thanks if I want to fish with kids I will take my own.


Woody

FisherForLife
12-02-2008, 08:24 PM
Lol you guys are taking this out of hand. I posted this with a joking attitude. Forget it, i'm done :)

johnbfishin
12-02-2008, 08:35 PM
Fishforlife, this is a quote from you on another thread. This is such basic info that is readily available per the reg books if you were to take the time to read them.

So i was fishing with my cousin not too long ago, and he brought up a question that i couldn't answer. The limit for trout is 5. But does that include browns and brookies? If i have one brown, then can i only get 4 more rainbows and then i'm done? The way i understand it, browns are more part of the salmon family, so shouldn't they have their own limit? Thanks for any info. Oh and while i'm at it, what's the limit for kokanee?


And then we have this thread about changing hooks.....settle down and you'll do well.

Weez
12-02-2008, 10:06 PM
I have had Rapalas smashed, thrashed and ruined by big fish, but in general, even when trolling fast (with light line and a light drag), I don't lose many fish due to hook or ring failure. I would not recommend running the smallest Raps on the fast troll with a stiff rod and low-stretch braid though, or at least not where you may find real bruiser trout. One thing not mentioned so far I think is changing out hooks because they are big, stupid and too visible in the water. Rapala J-13's used to come with silvery, plated or 'tinned' saltwater hooks. Saltwater Raps and big Rebels and Bombers still do. These look way obvious in clear waters like Tahoe, so I like to change them out for lighter wire, high-quality bronzed-finish hooks, like Gamakatsu EWG.

Another thing with custom hooks is that they differ in the way they are tempered in the finishing process. Owner hooks for example, are extremely strong, but when stressed to the max they can snap and break off. The Gamakatsus I use will bend instead. Which is better? I'm biased toward my favorite, but if the hook breaks you WILL lose your fish. I've brought in some of my biggest trout and mackinaw though on hooks that are bent from the fight, to the point that a little more bend would have let the fish off, but the hook did its job and had quite a mangled tale to tell at the end as well. Rapala hooks (except those plated ones) tend to bend rather than break, so I like them. Replace them after one good tweaking though- and by the way, you will have to upsize or downsize to replace them because they come in ODD sizes (5, 7, etc...) not the normal even hook sizes (4, 6) you can buy.