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View Full Version : Serious Question:Trout-Bait vs Flies



MattMan
03-09-2008, 01:10 PM
I have a question concering trout swallowing bait and yet not swallowing flies. When fishing streams and rivers and wanting to release all fish caught, I'll put the salmon egg on a nymph, 99% of the trout caught are caught in the lip or there abouts, and easily released. When fishing with a naked hook with eggs, 99% of the trout caught swallow the hook.

Question: Why do trout swallow, say salmon eggs, and not swallow flies, or in this case flies with salmon eggs attached?

I'm no fish biologist and I'm a bit stumped. Thanks for your imput. ;)

drstressor
03-09-2008, 01:16 PM
When a fish takes an edible bait into its mouth, the next step is to swallow it as food. *When a fish takes an inedible object like a lure or fly into its mouth, the usual result is to spit it out after a second or so. *Putting bait or even scent on a lure increases the probability that it will be swallowed, but most of the time they will spit it out if you don't set the hook.

It's all a matter of taste. ;)

MattMan
03-09-2008, 01:22 PM
Doc, thanks for your quick and informative answer. *;) I was asked this question some time ago and could only reply: "That's a darn good question."
Thanks again. *;)

It's all a matter of taste.
Perfect. *;) ;D

MattMan
03-09-2008, 08:24 PM
When a fish takes an edible bait into its mouth, the next step is to swallow it as food. *When a fish takes an inedible object like a lure or fly into its mouth, the usual result is to spit it out after a second or so. Putting bait or even scent on a lure increases the probability that it will be swallowed, but most of the time they will spit it out if you don't set the hook.

It's all a matter of taste. ;)



Did everyone know that, or was it just me? :D ::)

hunkfisher
03-09-2008, 08:45 PM
I didnt thanks doc!

Brad "Hunkfisher"

[smiley=swimmingfish.gif]

Captain Compassion
03-09-2008, 08:47 PM
Question: Why do trout swallow, say salmon eggs, and not swallow flies, or in this case flies with salmon eggs attached?

I'm no fish biologist and I'm a bit stumped. Thanks for your imput. *;)


Which would taste better a T-bone Steak or a T-bone steak made of feathers? :D

CC

Pyramid_Kid
03-09-2008, 09:03 PM
Which would taste better a T-bone Steak or a T-bone steak made of feathers? *

CC

You can make a turd look like a T bone stake. But its still a turd. *It doesnt really matter what your lure looks or tastes like. If the fish are actively feeding and what your presenting resembles what they know as food. They are going to hit it. You just have to set the hook fast enough. *I have a friend at work that use's cigarette butts (filters) that have already been smoked. Ive seen him catch trout with it, blue gills, bass, and Mtn white fish. *I myself have caught fish on just a shiney hook. * Like Doc has said before fish are dumb. *While the rely on some taste and smell in order to eat the visual of what your presenting can be way more *than enough for them to hit your offering.

dave_in_el_dorado
03-09-2008, 09:25 PM
....... I have a friend at work that use's cigarette butts (filters) that have already been smoked.......

thats it!! just what i've been missing.......trollin butts on folsom, camanche, pardee, and amador..... *;D

i actually once found a folsom king's stomach loaded w/ marlboros .....no lie...i caught him in the corner cove at the east end of dike 8 in the early 80's.

SSTiddy
03-10-2008, 12:17 AM
One other way to look at this is on a bit bigger scale, one wich most of us who have the discovery channel have seen. A Great White shark may bite a surfer or his board, but it is a rare occasion that he acctually eats either. My point is that fish investigate things with there mouths, if they don't like what they find, they spit it out, and look for somthing else. If however what they find is tasty, and feels like something they would normally eat, they swallow it as fast as possible(i.e. salmon eggs). I'm not a fish but I'm guessing that a bunch of hair and feathers tastes about as good as a surfboard. Well, that's my 2 cents.
Also if your planning to release the fish you catch. Try using barbless hooks if you aren't already. Although, if your using natural bait, they will still probably swallow the hook. There is a really great hook removal tool, that in my experience can save alot of fish, even those that have swallowed the hook deep. I don't know the name of it(come on guy's help me out), but it is a red stick with a ball at each end. Shaped like flower buds (I guess). One small and one large. With a little practice you can release almost any fish no matter how deep the hook is. They work great.
I hope this helps! And good luck out there!
Steve

troutfan
03-10-2008, 01:53 AM
Also if your planning to release the fish you catch. Try using barbless hooks if you aren't already. Although, if your using natural bait, they will still probably swallow the hook. There is a really great hook removal tool, that in my experience can save alot of fish, even those that have swallowed the hook deep. I don't know the name of it(come on guy's help me out), but it is a red stick with a ball at each end. Shaped like flower buds (I guess). One small and one large. With a little practice you can release almost any fish no matter how deep the hook is. They work great.
You are referring to a hook disgorger and you are 100% in error thinking that removing a swallowed hook with a disgorger will save the fish. *The only thing it will save is your hook, the fish will most certainly die from internal damage. * If you want to give a gut-hooked fish a chance to survive, without lifting the fish out of the water you should cut the line at his mouth and let him swim away! ::)


I have a friend at work that use's cigarette butts (filters) that have already been smoked. Ive seen him catch trout with it, blue gills, bass, and Mtn white fish.
Let's try to keep the butts out of the water. *Trout cannot digest the butt and intentionally putting them in the water is not a very smart act!

GCinGV
03-10-2008, 02:58 AM
When using bait a fast hook set will greatly reduce the number of gut hooked fish. The worse thing when using bait is putting the rod in a rod holder, youíre almost certain to gut hook fish. Virtually the only time I ever gut hook fish on a stream with bait is when I get a tangle in the line and canít set the hook fast enough.
In my opinion light leaders are far more detrimental to a fishes health then a properly used crawler.
GC

drstressor
03-10-2008, 07:16 AM
You are referring to a hook disgorger and you are 100% in error thinking that removing a swallowed hook with a disgorger will save the fish. The only thing it will save is your hook, the fish will most certainly die from internal damage. If you want to give a gut-hooked fish a chance to survive, without lifting the fish out of the water you should cut the line at his mouth and let him swim away!

This is a fact. I've read studies showing that any attempt at deep hook removal increases mortality over what would occur just by cutting the line.

billfisher
03-10-2008, 10:01 AM
Matt - Your question is a "good question" because it is based on a accurate and important observation. If you fish with bait you should do so with the understanding that you will not be able to successfully catch and release all (or maybe even most) of your catch. This is why C & R only waters are also restricted to flies and artificial lures (usually also barbless). I am not opposed to bait fishing, but when I do it I do so with the knowledge that I will be keeping most of what I catch. However, the vast majority of my fishing, whether with fly fishing, spinning or trolling tackle is done with flies and lures. They usually work as well or better than bait and they are much easier on the fish.

I really wish that fishing with flies was not perceived by many fishermen to be as difficult and mysterious and expensive as they often seem to think it is because it is a great way to catch and release fish on all kinds of tackle and in all kinds of water.

SuperDave
03-10-2008, 11:29 AM
I really wish that fishing with flies was not perceived by many fishermen to be as difficult and mysterious and expensive as they often seem to think it is because it is a great way to catch and release fish on all kinds of tackle and in all kinds of water.

The fact that no fish will ever hook themself with a fly is a problem for some. ;)

billfisher
03-10-2008, 11:44 AM
I really wish that fishing with flies was not perceived by many fishermen to be as difficult and mysterious and expensive as they often seem to think it is because it is a great way to catch and release fish on all kinds of tackle and in all kinds of water.

The fact that no fish will ever hook themself with a fly is a problem for some. * ;) *

But they do ... quite often. On trolling flies for example they hook themselves just like they do on lures or trolled crawlers. This is only one example, but I do not want to stray too far off of Matt's point, which is they also usually hook themselves in the lip.

SSTiddy
03-10-2008, 04:46 PM
You are referring to a hook disgorger and you are 100% in error thinking that removing a swallowed hook with a disgorger will save the fish. *The only thing it will save is your hook, the fish will most certainly die from internal damage. * If you want to give a gut-hooked fish a chance to survive, without lifting the fish out of the water you should cut the line at his mouth and let him swim away!

This is a fact. I've read studies showing that any attempt at deep hook removal increases mortality over what would occur just by cutting the line.
Well I've revived and released a lot of fish after using this tool. I have had to keep some that were obviously too injured. But over all, I've released more fish that looked to be in good shape than I've had to keep. I guess that this, from what your saying is some what of a deception, and that they succumb to their injuries later. Good to know, thanks! I won't promote this type of device for live release anymore.

Grizz
03-10-2008, 06:54 PM
I have also read that you should leave 8 inched of line if you leave the hook. The line streams out of the side of their mouth and pulls the hook to the side, so when they swallow food, it doesnít lift the hook, get caught and block off the throat

drstressor
03-10-2008, 08:00 PM
This is one of my favorite reviews on Catch and Release:

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/mnr/pubs/fishing/catch_and_release_review_and_guidelines.pdf

The section relevant to removing swallowed hooks reads:


While the increased mortality associated with deep hooking is understood, it is less clear as to whether it is better to cut the line of deeply hooked fish or try to remove the hook, potentially risking further injury and increased air exposure to the fish. Aalbers et al. (2004) examined the growth and survival of white seabass up to 90 days after catch and found that survival of fish released with hooks left in place was enhanced, as compared to fish with hooks removed, but that growth was reduced. When hooks were removed mortality was 65%, compared to 41% when hooks were left embedded. Of the fish in this study that were released with the hooks left in place, 39% had successfully shed the hooks by the end of the study, however, of the hooks that remained in place there was minimal degradation. These results are similar to those found by Mason and Hunt (1967), who examined the effect of hook removal on the survival of rainbow trout up to four months after release. Two-thirds of the fish released without hook removal survived, while only 11.5% of the fish which had hooks removed survived. Additionally, of the fish that survived with hooks left in place, more than half had shed the hooks by the end of the study. Schill (1996) found that cutting the line on deeply hooked rainbow trout reduced mortality from 58% to 36%, and 60%-74% of fish that were released with hooks left in place had managed to discard the hooks by the end of the study. It has recently been suggested that for species such as bass and walleye, it may be possible to reduce mortality caused by deep hooking by removing the hook through the gills (Strange, 2004). However, to date there have not been any empirical studies which have demonstrated the effectiveness of this technique. Thus, despite the relative few studies which have examined the effect of deep hooking on mortality, it appears as though, for some species, mortality can be reduced if deeply hooked fish are released with the hook left in place.

Most of the fish that die after swallowing a hook are killed by damage to internal organs. They typically expire many hours or days after a "successful" release.

Jetspray
03-10-2008, 08:15 PM
In order to dislodge a hook you also have to kinda over handle them. That causes alot of external damage to scales/slime formed. I figure hooks and special setups are easier to release and replace than a fish I don't want to keep (maybe a picture or two first). Trout are mostly a quick strike fish they for a S like a snake before strike. That is why they hit slow moving gear more often than a fast runner....just my 2 cents....Jetspray