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pdog
10-04-2007, 07:44 AM
Three of us fished the opener and even though the weather stunk we managed to catch 67 fish with nothing over 24". But tuesday turned out a whole lot better. My eight year old son managed to land three over 24" and my partner caught one 8.6lbs. And to top it all off we ended up with 92 fish. Read alot of reports and i recommend going a little deeper and trolling as slow as you can. I have a few pictures of my son's fish but have no idea how to post them. The only bad thing that happened is the 8.6lb fish swallowed the hook and we had to keep it. But on the bright side its the biggest fish of the year at Crosbys.

drstressor
10-04-2007, 07:49 AM
Congrats on the nice catch. But post it's post like this one that are going to get downriggers banned in the future.

metalmouth
10-04-2007, 07:53 AM
As Doc said, nice catch however. . .
I agree. If you are going to Pyramid to fish deep and expose those Cutts to a high rate of mortality by pulling them to the warmer water on the surface, it might not be such a good thing to post about. *:'(

Captain Compassion
10-04-2007, 07:58 AM
At least post a picture of your boad so we can know who to follow. 8-)

CC

troutfan
10-04-2007, 08:07 AM
The tribe closed the Nets area during the spawn so they have proven that the good of the fishery is paramount over any possible revenue. Before I learned about the mortality rate of fish caught at 60+ I fished deep on occaision but I never found it to be very productive.

SuperDave
10-04-2007, 08:11 AM
*Before I learned about the mortality rate of fish caught at 60+ I fished deep on occaision but I never found it to be very productive.

And there is no mention of a specific depth range in the post to indicate how deep pdog was fishing. Doc has just assumed what range he was fishing in.

pdog
10-04-2007, 08:15 AM
I appologize if my posting was affensive. but a fyi my 14 foot boat does not have any down riggers and the deepest water we fished was 50-60 feet. And all the fish came trolling. Maybe i should keep my information to my self. Again sorry! Just trying to give a good report. And like i stated earlier only one fish was taken from the lake.

chicofishrmen
10-04-2007, 08:17 AM
1st off pdog, welcome to the boards! Thanks for the report & congrats on the nice catch. If you PM me the pic's I'll post them up for you.

Were you fishing in 50-60' of water or fishing down 50-60'? Without DR's I dobut you could down to that deep unless you were using some serious weight.

metalmouth
10-04-2007, 08:22 AM
I apologize if my posting was offensive. but a fyi my 14 foot boat does not have any down riggers and the deepest water we fished was 50-60 feet. And all the fish came trolling. Maybe i should keep my information to my self. Again sorry! Just trying to give a good report. And like i stated earlier only one fish was taken from the lake.
pdog,
Your post was not intended to offend nor was it taken that way. Through studies, we have learned that fish taken from depths that hold cold water, then released to warmer surface water do not have a very good survival rate. As fishermen that also try to be good stewards of our lakes and streams, we should all seek to educate other fisherman as to protecting not only the fish but the future of fishing.

I do look forward to your posts in the future!

MM

pdog
10-04-2007, 08:25 AM
50 -60 foot bottom. and with 4-5 ounce weight i can bounce bottom all day, you just have to slow you boat down and use lures that work well with slow retrieves.

drstressor
10-04-2007, 08:28 AM
I apologize for assuming that you were fishing deep, pdog. :-[

I lobbied the Tribe to keep downriggers legal this year and part of my argument was that folks are being educated about the mortality caused by deep trolling and that most folks were not trolling deeper than 35 ft on the wire. The Tribe and Pyramid Lake Fisheries are very aware of the fish that are being wasted by folks banging the bottom in certain deep areas. I was concerned that if they learn of people encouraging this type of fishing, downriggers will be banned in the near future.

Again, I'm sorry that I jumped to an incorrect conclusion about your fishing methods. Please keep up your posting.

metalmouth
10-04-2007, 08:33 AM
It would still be my contention that you should not attempt to fish C&R to depths over 25 or 30 feet during the warmer months at Pyramid. Those Cutts simply can't stand the stress of going from the safety of the colder waters down deep, to the warmer surface waters without time to adjust. The result will be a very high mortality rate. The tribe is aware of this and if fishermen choose not to take responsibility for this issue they will pass laws that will.

pdog
10-04-2007, 08:41 AM
Hopefully chicofisherman can post my son's picture and thanks for the added tips. pdog out.

BreakofDawn
10-04-2007, 08:42 AM
Don't take it personnel pdog..Doc yelled at me for using a stringer to take pictures of my fish and then letting them go!! He is just trying to educate us on proper C&R techniques, I think. :-? ;D ;D

chicofishrmen
10-04-2007, 08:50 AM
Here is the pic of pdog's son Cutt. Nice fish!

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/742/traviscuttgi7.jpg

SuperDave
10-04-2007, 08:57 AM
pdog, looks like westside near Spider?

drstressor
10-04-2007, 09:22 AM
50-60 ft is still going to kill most of the fish that are released. Especially this time of year. Notice the swollen belly on the fish in the picture.

I'll confess that when I first started fishing Pyramid years ago, I used to mostly fish 60-100 ft down. Particularly early in the season. I used to catch a lot of fish. I thought that by deflating the swim bladder before release that the fish would be OK. However, in 1996 I worked on a salmon project studying gas bubble disease. This kills many smolts as they move downstream through the dams. It's caused by decompression as they move from 60-70 ft depths above the dams to near surface depths at the bottom. We measured stress protein induction in fish held over the next week. Most of those fish died by the end of that time period although they seemed fine for the first day or so. The problem is gas bubbles that form in the capillaries causing gradual organ failure. You can see signs of gas bubble disease in many of the fish you catch at Pyramid. They show hemorrhages in their fins. These fish are the survivors. How many actually die in the lake is not known, but the numbers must be significant. Now that I understand the consequences, I no longer fish deeper than 35 ft down. That's one atmosphere and most studies show that's where the release mortality starts to really increase. There are plenty of fish at that depth or shallower all season long.

I once tried to talk a former Pyramid Lake fisheries guy into doing a study on release mortality and depth of catch. He told me that it would be a waste of time and money since lots of other studies have already been done on fish that are a lot tougher than cutthroat. He's right of course. You can Google "gas bubble disease" or "catch and release mortality" to learn more about the topic.

I don't mean to sound preachy, but I really believe that if fishermen understand the consequences of what they are doing they'll regulate themselves. There's always going to be some mortality with any type of catch and release. But knowing that more that 50% of the fish you let go are going to die should be enough to discourage most folks from fishing deep for cutts.

Captain Compassion
10-04-2007, 09:30 AM
Were you fishing in 50-60' of water or fishing down 50-60'? Without DR's I dobut you could down to that deep unless you were using some serious weight.


That depth is possible with a good leadcore trolling outfit and a slow troll. 8 colors is around 55 feet.

CC

metalmouth
10-04-2007, 09:42 AM
With 8 colors or 18 colors your speed would have to be under 1.2 mph to reach a depth of 55 to 60 feet unless you were using a very heavy aerodynamic lure. If you read Precision Trolling by Mark Romanack, a book that not only used science, but divers as well to verify depth fishing, you will see that the drag coefficient on the line the width of lead core causes it to flat line before it reaches that depth. The depth curves of most lures and line diameters are illustrated in this book and it should be a must have for every serious troller.
Depths such as those require lines with heavy weights or Steel or Copper line generally speaking. *;)

This brings up the fight in the fish. Not so much with heavy weights or heavy lines. :-/

SuperDave
10-04-2007, 09:55 AM
Doc,

In your above post you mention gas bubble disease. Some of the people that fish deep try to justify fishing below 50' with an argument that the surface temperature is in the 50's or whatever. Does your above comments mean that water temperature means nothing?

drstressor
10-04-2007, 10:02 AM
There is a temperature effect. Gases are less soluble as the temperature goes up. So the bubbles get bigger if a fish is brought up from cooler water to warmer water. That's why you see fewer floaters in January than in October. The change in temperature can also be a stressor by itself, which further decreases the likelihood of survival.

troutfan
10-04-2007, 10:08 AM
Good first post Pdog! You stimulated a discussion which has been very informative. Welcome to the boards. :)

metalmouth
10-04-2007, 10:17 AM
Nice write up Doc. Perhaps the tribe could publish it!! *;)

Captain Compassion,
To run depth tests on lures using lead core or any other scenario I have a sandy bank that gradually slopes to a depth of 100 feet. I troll my lures at optimum speeds along that bank until the lure finds bottom. That tells me all I need to know about depth for long lining or lead core and weight trolling. Write the info down, throw it in your lure bag, and happy hunting! *

MM 8-) ;D 8-)

Desertdog
10-04-2007, 11:34 AM
Perhaps the real nugget in Pdogs report was going slower. Others have posted lots of suspended fish above the 35' level and I see no reason these fish would not respond as aggressively as the fish at 50' perhaps even more so. I will find out tomorrow for sure as I have 4 Grandsons that need to catch some fish this weekend..

Verdeye
10-04-2007, 11:36 AM
Great fish pdog and son! The smile says it all.

CHICKFISHING58
10-04-2007, 02:10 PM
The picture of your son is priceless love the smile ;)

BigB
10-04-2007, 03:27 PM
pdog,

Now that the depth issue taken care of, what did you catch your fish on?

Brian

Steelerfan
10-04-2007, 05:12 PM
I might hesitate to awnser Pdog, for fear it might be the wrong color or wrong size lure. ;)

johnbfishin
10-05-2007, 03:56 AM
Don't take it personnel pdog..Doc yelled at me for using a stringer to take pictures of my fish and then letting them go!! He is just trying to educate us on proper C&R techniques, I think. *:-? ;D ;D

BD I saw that post as well, rest assured that if Doc hadn't passed on some info someone would have. You're right that it isn't personal, it's about understanding and minimizing the impact we have on fisheries.
IMO considering how many folks read these boards vs those that stick around, information on how to increase successful catch & release can't be repeated enough. 8-)

somebody
10-05-2007, 04:18 AM
When these posts get serious and honest you can understand why and how these people are considered sportsmen. Not just the men but the ladies also. While some think swim, walk or crawl they want to kill it. These people are in the minority and as sniffers get the word out and the education continues there will be fish and game in the future. Remember as long as the grass grows and the water flows keep it clean

cynnate
10-05-2007, 06:23 AM
All in all, great looking fish Pdog. ;D Can't wait until my son reaches an age to appreciate fishing!!!

Steelerfan
10-05-2007, 08:31 AM
Pdog, you have created a lifetime memory for you and your son. Great fish and report.

Set_The_Hook
10-05-2007, 09:14 PM
Don't take it personnel pdog..Doc yelled at me for using a stringer to take pictures of my fish and then letting them go!! He is just trying to educate us on proper C&R techniques, I think. *:-? ;D ;D

BD I saw that post as well, rest assured that if Doc hadn't passed on some info someone would have. You're right that it isn't personal, it's about understanding and minimizing the impact we have on fisheries.
IMO considering how many folks read these boards vs those that stick around, information on how to increase successful catch & release can't be repeated enough. 8-)

Too true...
Debunking some of the old ideas about fish mortality in this medium is outstanding.
At one time I was taught how to deflate the bladder on a deep caught fish by using a hypodermic needle. Bad juju. :(

Another method that was popular, was to aim the fish head first towards the water and forcefully throw them back in. It was believed that the shock of hitting the water hard would cause the fish to burp and be able to go back down. :-[

Neither of these methods took into account evolved gases. We unkowingly killed alot of fish back then.

gonfishin
10-06-2007, 08:28 AM
Outriggers should be banned from Pyramid Lake! I think this thread would be interesting reading to the fisherie's policy makers!

Mickey_Thomas
10-06-2007, 08:46 AM
I think the reason they didn't outlaw riggers was because fishermen would just use more weight to get the lines down deeper, when you hit rocks with the down rigger weights most of the time you can get them back. When you snag a 5 oz banana weight in the rocks it's toast, hence a lot more lead in the bottom of the lake. Education on fishing deep on the lake is best, in my opinion. Maybe the Tribe could post up signs where they sell licenses and educate the fishermen about survival rates of released fish.

troutfan
10-06-2007, 10:18 AM
Outriggers should be banned from Pyramid Lake! I think this thread would be interesting reading to the fisherie's policy makers!
What's wrong with outriggers? ;D ;D

maui_mark
10-06-2007, 02:05 PM
I agree with you MT. Perhaps a small informational note with the tribal permits would be just the ticket. I don't think that most people would go out and intentionally kill fish that they can't keep. Downriggers are a great tool, and when used in the top 30' shouldn't present a problem. I'm still giving thought to outriggers... mark

Kell_I
10-06-2007, 03:56 PM
Double [smiley=clap.gif] [smiley=clap.gif] to your son!! Great going lil' guy!!! [smiley=clap.gif] [smiley=clap.gif] [smiley=clap.gif]

metalmouth
10-06-2007, 03:57 PM
Last year at Pyramid I ran planer boards and downriggers. I fished the planer boards while my guests on board fished the downriggers. Somehow I caught the biggest and the most. . . *hmmm . . . I guess Doc was right! *

The fish that are aggressively feeding are up near the surface and move to the sides as the boat passes. I wasn't under the boat so . . .

MM 8-) ;D 8-)

SuperDave
10-06-2007, 05:34 PM
Don,

When you used the planner boards, how much weight did you use?

metalmouth
10-06-2007, 06:41 PM
I ran 1 to 2 ounces. 2 Ounces against the cliffs on the east side. 1.5 from the launch to Warrior, and 1 oz. along the willows. 2 oz. will hit the bottom on the turns in 35' of water. :'( I learned that when I ran into Warrior Point just south of the monument while making my turn into the bay. ::) :-? 8-) That's where I lost my red and white Daredevil Spoon with a brass back. :'(

MM 8-) ;D 8-)