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Fishmeister
11-01-2010, 01:26 PM
I am considering upgrading my transducer and am looking at both the transom mount and in hull versions.

I hear a lot about the P66 which is a 600 watt unit, the P79 is pretty much the same unit for in hull, no temp and speed but that's OK.

My question is, is it worth it to go to the 1000 watt versions like the M260 or the TM 260. Will the HDS 10 head drive these units to their max effectiveness? Is the broadband functions of the more expensive transducers of value with the HDS 10?

spooled
11-01-2010, 01:59 PM
yes yes yes, the 1000 watt which I druel over is over 50 times more swensitive than the P66. If you have the coin, go for it.

ReelJerks
11-02-2010, 08:02 AM
Fishmeister let's start with WHERE you are fishing and at WHAT DEPTHS? The OEM 83/200 TM ducer that ships with the unit is a good ducer. But if you want to change (and I did) I selected the Airmar P319 with temp and I am really happy. This is a thru-hull 'flush mount' transducer that is perfect for trailer-able boats. Very attractive cost for an excellent HDS upgrade if your not fishing deep open water. I get great arches in as much as 350 feet of water & I have heard of excellent results in 600+ feet of water. It holds bottom and I get good separation at WOT around 16 mph. Now the only thing I'm not sure of is if the P319 is sold with a tilted element. Check Airmar's site right here AIRMAR Cross-Reference Interface (http://www.airmartechnology.com/xref/default.asp) for comparisons and compatibility.

Edd

<---------woowoo 1200!

ReelJerks
11-09-2010, 12:11 PM
My question is, is it worth it to go to the 1000 watt versions like the M260 or the TM 260. Will the HDS 10 head drive these units to their max effectiveness? Is the broadband functions of the more expensive transducers of value with the HDS 10?

I have been convinced here lately, that 'the better transducer will always produce better results no matter what head unit you have'. The question is; Are you using your sonar in conditions where you will benefit from a transducer costing 6X more? The jury, for me, is still out, but I'm starting to think that for me it would be worth 6X the money for the 1000w ducer.

Now where can I find the cash?

Edd

Fishmeister
11-10-2010, 11:46 AM
Lowrance documentation is terrible. Is it the 106-77 HST-DFSBL transducer the HDS comes with? Anyone know the specs. in particular cone angles?
Thanks

ReelJerks
11-10-2010, 12:16 PM
Lowrance documentation is terrible. Is it the 106-77 HST-DFSBL transducer the HDS comes with? Anyone know the specs. in particular cone angles?
Thanks

The unit can be ordered in several ways, but I'm not sure how you did it. Can you tell me what choices you have for frequency? If you have the 83/200 kHz Dual Search, it is the HST-WSBL. If you have the 50 kHz/200kHz Dual Frequency (larger in size) then you have the HST-DFSBL. The 83/200 dual search is the same as the old 200 kHz single freq. transducer.

Edd

Fishmeister
11-10-2010, 04:08 PM
Thanks Edd. I have the 50/200. I believe the cone angle is 35/12 respecetively. Since the majority of my fishing is in 200' or less I hate to give up any cone angle and the 1000 watt Airmars are in the 19/6 degree range except for the TM270W which is 25/25 but it is hard to justify the $1000 for a transducer. The P66 is at 45/11 degrees so pretty much what I have now but still a 600 watt unit. Price is much better. I guess I'm still a little skeptical of how much better it would perform than the existing Lowrance which I have heard is an Airmar from their Mexican plant but that may be hearsay. I beleave it does have a smaller lower grade crystal than the P66.

ReelJerks
11-10-2010, 04:22 PM
Thanks Edd. I have the 50/200. I believe the cone angle is 35/12 respecetively. Since the majority of my fishing is in 200' or less I hate to give up any cone angle and the 1000 watt Airmars are in the 19/6 degree range except for the TM270W which is 25/25 but it is hard to justify the $1000 for a transducer. The P66 is at 45/11 degrees so pretty much what I have now but still a 600 watt unit. Price is much better. I guess I'm still a little skeptical of how much better it would perform than the existing Lowrance which I have heard is an Airmar from their Mexican plant but that may be hearsay. I beleave it does have a smaller lower grade crystal than the P66.

I can only tell you that I rarely use the OEM ducer. I love the Airmar P319 which has the same crystal as the P66. I know about the $...I have a savings account fired up trying to have enough for TM270W by early next Spring. I believe THAT is the best ducer for us lake fisherguys, sans Tahoe or The Great Lakes.
Edd

edit.....I heard/read, and I'm trying to get confirmation, that the 83/200 kHz is 20 degrees on the 200 side and....get this...."up to 60 degrees on the 83 side", but like I said...no confirmation yet.

Fishmeister
11-10-2010, 04:31 PM
Lust is a wonderful thing. It keeps the economy going. I know I have way more than the budget will handle most days. I would love to have the TM270W. The specs show it is a 1000' deep unit which will handle everything you need to know in Tahoe and most of the ocean fishing also. I may be wrong but below 400' does it really matter what the bottom is doing? We are fishing somewhere in the column much shallower at that time.

Fishmeister
11-10-2010, 04:35 PM
On the 83/200 I think the cone angle comes at a cost. On a crystal, the smaller it is the larger the cone angle. Also the less resolution. The 83/200 is one of the lesser expensive of the Lowrance transducers which may tell us something. The crystal size is why the 1000 watt jobs have such a narrow cone angle. Their crystal is of ultra high quality and very large.

ReelJerks
11-11-2010, 11:34 AM
Here's the confirmation I received from Lowrance on the cone angles. Be forewarned this is quite lengthy.

"Our transducer expert sent me information to help answer your question on Facebook. It was too long to post so I am providing it here. By the way, your black boat decals are shipping out today. You should have them early next week.

==================================

On our broadband sonar we have the ability to run the standard 50/200 that you mentioned below as well as the ability to run a 200kHz transducer at 83kHz by vibrating the transducer crystal in a different method.

HDS High Definition System (http://www.lowrance.com/Support/Library/What-is-HDS/)

Greater Shallow-Water Coverage
To cover even more water, Broadband automatically adds 83 kHz operation to a Lowrance 200 kHz single-frequency transducer. At 83 kHz, you get full 120-degrees of wide-angle coverage with greatly enhanced definition of fish arch targets.

When using an 83/200 transducer we have the following main beam cone angles:

200kHz = 20⁰
83kHz = 40⁰

When we take into account the useable side lobes of the transducer signal we get the following useable or “field of view” cone angles:

200kHz = 60⁰
83kHz = 120⁰

What is a side lobe?
A sonar signal is not purely a cone going down into the water. Every “cone” is made up of multiple parts or lobes that can be used by the sonar to detect targets. With our Broadband sonar, built into HDS, we have enough power and clarity in the first side lobe on each side of the main lobe to widen our coverage or cone. So a 20⁰ main cone + two 20⁰ Side lobes = a 60⁰ coverage area at 200kHz. A 40⁰ main cone + two 40⁰ side lobes = a 120⁰ coverage area at 83kHz.


• Frequency – There are multiple frequencies used by sonar manufactures and each is good for specific depth ranges and conditions.

o 50kHz:
Pro: Good for deep water/ offshore use. The 50 kHz frequency penetrates deeper water, greater than 200m/660ft, easier and has a wide cone angle to allow for more bottom coverage at big depths.
Con: Not as useful in shallower waters, lower target resolution compared with higher frequencies.

o 200kHz:
Pro: Great signal resolution makes for easier target separation of bottom structure and fish arches in shallow water, up to 200m/660ft.
Con: High frequency that limits the depth range, narrower cone angles limit the amount of bottom searched in deeper waters

o 83kHz:
Pro: Good wide angle for shallow to medium depth waters, this frequency provides a good compromise between 50 kHz and 200 kHz.
Con: Does not have the target resolution of the 200 kHz or the depth of the 50 kHz."

Edd

Fishmeister
11-11-2010, 01:19 PM
Very interesting. Thank you!

Pal Joey
11-12-2010, 07:38 AM
Now it looks like the best for us trollers is the Lowrance transducer using the 83 setting. I mean if you are getting that kind of wide angle coverage this is a no brainer.

Thanks again Reel Jerks,

pj

Semperfifishing
12-05-2010, 07:52 PM
Now the only thing I'm not sure of is if the P319 is sold with a tilted element. Check Airmar's site right here AIRMAR Cross-Reference Interface (http://www.airmartechnology.com/xref/default.asp) for comparisons and compatibility.

Edd

<---------woowoo 1200!

The P66 (Transom),P319,B117,SS555,B60,SS60 ( Thru the hull) and P79 ( In the hull) all have the same exact piezoelectric crystal :600 watts, 45/100 degree cones.
The difference between them is their mounting style and element tilt.

The P319, B117,SS555 thru the hull are only available in a fixed element .

The B60 thru the hull is available in a 20 degree tilted version for 16 to 24 hull deadrise.
The B60 is also available in a 12 degree tilted version for 8 to 15 degree hull deadrise.

The P79 in the hull unit is adjustable for 0 to 24 degree hull deadrise.

In my business during the last year we have sold over 700 P66 , 300 B60 and 150 P319 units. The B6o and P319 having the edge as far as being more sensitive due to the thru the hull mounting.
The P66 being easy to mount is of course the most popular.

I have been asked many times what is the differences between the OEM Lowrance transducers and the Airmar such as the P66 and its variants.

These are some of the positives of the Airmar that are not found in the OEM Lowrance unit.

The Airmar units has dual attachments leads instead of one to a higher quality piezoelectric crystal.
The Airmar transducer has an embedded micro-controller that communicates with the sonar to optimize the soanrs performance and to protect the transducers from overdrive.
The crystal has ceramic,cork and metal encasement to reducer "bell ringing" and thus bring the crystal back to to a "quiet" state in order to now become a passive receiver.

The larger crystal requires less power, and is also more sensitive to the return signal.
Remember, doubling the crystal size is the same as quadrupling the output power of a sonar.
Example: a 200 watt sonar and a 4" crystal will reach the same depth as a 800 watt sonar and a 2" crystal.

The larger the crystal the more focused the transmit beam...and the greater the sensitivity to the return signal.


Anyone with any questions concerning these units concerning installation and use etc. feel free to Pm me.

P319
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8048/transducercutawaylabele.jpg




Tilted element
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1456/tiltedelementinstalllo.jpg

ReelJerks
12-07-2010, 10:46 AM
And here is how you can mount a 'Thru-Hull' P319 on a pontoon boat.
2922

bassinguy33
12-07-2010, 01:32 PM
I was talking to sonny at sonnys electronics and he said he wasnt aware of a improvement from the stock tranducer,so im wondering if its worth trying the airmar p66bl.Any comments on this?

ReelJerks
12-07-2010, 01:54 PM
I was talking to sonny at sonnys electronics and he said he wasnt aware of a improvement from the stock tranducer,so im wondering if its worth trying the airmar p66bl.Any comments on this?

I have said in the past, if you already own the HDS you may not need to switch, but if you are just ordering you should order w/o the OEM and get the best Airmar you can afford.

I did switch between the OEM and the Airmar P319 and I really like the results. For one, I have never lost bottom since changing. Also, with the P319 I seem to be more 'in control' of my sonar.

The element in the P319 is the same element as in the P66TM.

Edd