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  1. #11
    Super Moderator salmonid's Avatar
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    Re: Mirror Lake Trail severely abused by horseback operators.

    Seems reasonable to me for the horse owners to pick up after their animals. I'm not sure what the law is there.

    Take care,
    Here they come!

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  2. #10
    Senior Member JoeReal's Avatar
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    Re: Mirror Lake Trail severely abused by horseback operators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jfitalia View Post
    These numbers are from the 90s.
    Here's more recent articles. The previous was just an example, with the same science still applicable today:

    https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publ...upplement/S-78
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...69772210001725
    http://tih.sagepub.com/content/15/1-2/133.short
    http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/1/5.short
    Last edited by JoeReal; 05-12-2014 at 11:49 AM.

  3. #9
    Senior Member JoeReal's Avatar
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    Re: Mirror Lake Trail severely abused by horseback operators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jfitalia View Post
    I just personally feel you're over thinking it

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
    Was also expressing my severe personal disappointment over the conditions of a National Park Hiking Trail next to the river. I did not expect to visit an animal farm there.

    I am not picky about manures as I regularly visit dairy farms and accompany friends who checked on their biogas digesters, and of course expected the smell and sight of manures, but never expected the same piles from National Park that is not even a zoo.

  4. #8
    Senior Member Jfitalia's Avatar
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    Re: Mirror Lake Trail severely abused by horseback operators.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeReal View Post
    Here's an example of how livestock manure can influence a river system:

    http://www.gfredlee.com/wef_sjr_0301.pdf
    These numbers are from the 90s.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

  5. #7
    Senior Member Jfitalia's Avatar
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    Re: Mirror Lake Trail severely abused by horseback operators.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeReal View Post
    Problem #1: What type of feed do they give the horses? Is it all natural and organic to be truly part of nature? Does it contain antibiotics, growth hormones and other medicines? Many antibiotics, growth hormones and medicine do not biodegrade quickly and they bioaccumulate in the river ecosystems, especially the fishes downstream. If the horse are wild and free, I have no problem with that. But for workhorses being kept in top shape for the tourists, their feeds should be scrutinized if they are natural and safe for the environment.

    Problem #2: You probably have not read nor seen what above average manure loading does to a small pristine stream. Horses out there in the open meadows far from streams are okay and occasional ones by the stream, but if you have several dozen horses on that short trail per day and the manure piling up, that is contrary to being natural.

    Problem #3: I can forgive the occasional bear scat, horse droppings, and that of other animals, but the trail looks like a feedlot livestock operation from the amount of horse manure being littered along the trails and it smells like a densely packed animal barn, and I don't think that this the natural image of a National Park.

    Would appreciate a civilized scientific discussion on this matter.
    I just personally feel you're over thinking it

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  6. #6
    Senior Member JoeReal's Avatar
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    Re: Mirror Lake Trail severely abused by horseback operators.

    Here's an example of how livestock manure can influence a river system:

    http://www.gfredlee.com/wef_sjr_0301.pdf

  7. #5
    Senior Member JoeReal's Avatar
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    Re: Mirror Lake Trail severely abused by horseback operators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banker916 View Post
    Lol.... Poop catcher on a horse? Is it like a big diaper?
    At least you don't have human poop all over the place. Can we install poop catchers on the homeless people along the American River?
    Or better yet why don't we just put em all in a bus and bring em to Yosemite..... They could be poop picker uppers...

    No, it is not a diaper. If you have been to old town Sacramento and taken a ride in horse-drawn carriage, you would have seen them.

    The problem is not the American River, but supposedly the pristine Yosemite National Park. We already have laws about defecating in public places, especially near river systems, and all it needed is to enforce them.

  8. #4
    Senior Member JoeReal's Avatar
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    Re: Mirror Lake Trail severely abused by horseback operators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jfitalia View Post
    I see no problem with it. You're in the outdoors and it's all part of nature.
    Problem #1: What type of feed do they give the horses? Is it all natural and organic to be truly part of nature? Does it contain antibiotics, growth hormones and other medicines? Many antibiotics, growth hormones and medicine do not biodegrade quickly and they bioaccumulate in the river ecosystems, especially the fishes downstream. If the horse are wild and free, I have no problem with that. But for workhorses being kept in top shape for the tourists, their feeds should be scrutinized if they are natural and safe for the environment.

    Problem #2: You probably have not read nor seen what above average manure loading does to a small pristine stream. Horses out there in the open meadows far from streams are okay and occasional ones by the stream, but if you have several dozen horses on that short trail per day and the manure piling up, that is contrary to being natural.

    Problem #3: I can forgive the occasional bear scat, horse droppings, and that of other animals, but the trail looks like a feedlot livestock operation from the amount of horse manure being littered along the trails and it smells like a densely packed animal barn, and I don't think that this the natural image of a National Park.

    Would appreciate a civilized scientific discussion on this matter.
    Last edited by JoeReal; 05-12-2014 at 11:15 AM.

  9. #3
    Senior Member LURKER916's Avatar
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    Re: Mirror Lake Trail severely abused by horseback operators.

    Lol.... Poop catcher on a horse? Is it like a big diaper?
    At least you don't have human poop all over the place. Can we install poop catchers on the homeless people along the American River?
    Or better yet why don't we just put em all in a bus and bring em to Yosemite..... They could be poop picker uppers...

  10. #2
    Senior Member Jfitalia's Avatar
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    Re: Mirror Lake Trail severely abused by horseback operators.

    I see no problem with it. You're in the outdoors and it's all part of nature.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

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